OAL question and SBR's - Specifically the Tavor

rsj1231 · Jan 21, 2016

I know Engage has a lawsuit going on about overall length but I'm curious how the MDSP states on their handgun roster page that a semi-auto rifle with an overall length of less than 29" etc etc... And then the ATF classify an SBR as being shorter than 26"?

On another note, the Tavor used to be listed on the roster and it said it was banned due to overall length when the OAL is over 26" for the 16.5" model, now it has been removed completely. Wishful thinking, but are they now OK since they're not specifically listed on the roster anymore, not banned by name in the FSA2013, not a copycat in any way shape or form, and also technically not an SBR according to the ATF?

Sources:
http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Organizati...onBureau/LicensingDivision/HandgunRoster.aspx

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

danb · Jan 21, 2016

rsj1231 said:
I know Engage has a lawsuit going on about overall length but I'm curious how the MDSP states on their handgun roster page that a semi-auto rifle with an overall length of less than 29" etc etc... And then the ATF classify an SBR as being shorter than 26"?

On another note, the Tavor used to be listed on the roster and it said it was banned due to overall length when the OAL is over 26" for the 16.5" model, now it has been removed completely. Wishful thinking, but are they now OK since they're not specifically listed on the roster anymore, not banned by name in the FSA2013, not a copycat in any way shape or form, and also technically not an SBR according to the ATF?

Sources:
http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Organizati...onBureau/LicensingDivision/HandgunRoster.aspx

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Tavor is still listed as banned under the IWI manufacturer. The model currently for sale in MD (IWI 18RS) is compliant with OAL due to the 18" barrel and 2-3/8" muzzle device bringing the OAL to 30". You will not get the 30 round 'murican size mag, of course.

dontpanic · Jan 21, 2016

According to MSP thier determinations are non binding. If you can get a 16.5" barrelled Tavor to 29" or more it will be legal.

It would not be a banned assault long gun or copy of one. It would also pass the copycat test.

You just need to find a FFL who knows the rules and will sell it.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=183835

MKR03 · Jan 21, 2016

rsj1231 said:
I know Engage has a lawsuit going on about overall length but I'm curious how the MDSP states on their handgun roster page that a semi-auto rifle with an overall length of less than 29" etc etc... And then the ATF classify an SBR as being shorter than 26"?

According to NFA, a SBR is a rifle (fired from the shoulder) with a barrel length less than 16" regardless of OAL. There's also "and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches."

FSA 2013 says that a rifle is banned as a copycat weapon if it has an OAL of less than 29" and/or 2 evil features.

Two different animals. With your Tavor example, since it has a 16.5" barrel, it's not an NFA weapon, but still (currently) banned in MD as a "copycat weapon" because it has an OAL under 29". Another example...let's pretend that you lived in a free state and built/bought an AR with an 8" barrel and an OAL of 27". Assuming you got a tax stamp and did everything legally according to NFA, you're GTG in ATF's eyes. If you move to MD with that rifle (purchased after 2013) you would be in violation because it's a copycat weapon. ATF still wouldn't care, but MD would.

daggo66 · Jan 22, 2016

dontpanic said:
According to MSP thier determinations are non binding. If you can get a 16.5" barrelled Tavor to 29" or more it will be legal.

It would not be a banned assault long gun or copy of one. It would also pass the copycat test.

You just need to find a FFL who knows the rules and will sell it.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=183835

Freestate sells them.

rsj1231 · Jan 22, 2016

Well this is disheartening... I really don't like the look of the 18" models with the longer muzzle device and a 16" one would need a 4-5 inch extension. I guess I'm out of luck unless this rule changes.

If the X95's OAL is already around 28" with the 16.5" barrel that wouldn't be so bad though.

Pinecone · Jan 22, 2016

Have you seen the factory MD legal ones?

They do not look that bad.

Clutch · Feb 9, 2016

MKR03 said:
According to NFA, a SBR is a rifle (fired from the shoulder) with a barrel length less than 16" regardless of OAL. There's also "and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches."

FSA 2013 says that a rifle is banned as a copycat weapon if it has an OAL of less than 29" and/or 2 evil features.

Two different animals. With your Tavor example, since it has a 16.5" barrel, it's not an NFA weapon, but still (currently) banned in MD as a "copycat weapon" because it has an OAL under 29". Another example...let's pretend that you lived in a free state and built/bought an AR with an 8" barrel and an OAL of 27". Assuming you got a tax stamp and did everything legally according to NFA, you're GTG in ATF's eyes. If you move to MD with that rifle (purchased after 2013) you would be in violation because it's a copycat weapon. ATF still wouldn't care, but MD would.

This clarifies things pretty well.

So, assuming MSP views SBR's as rifles, a SBR would need to be greater than 29" OAL. Therefore, if one were to tax stamp and declare a receiver as SBR and build it with a <16" barrel and meet a >29" OAL it would be good to go. This rifle is then an official and legal SBR meeting fed and state legislation.

Is there anything in fed law that restricts one from later mounting a >16" barrel to that receiver for a hunting trip or other? Is it still a formal "SBR" during the period if one did so? I would think so, since it is still a stamped NFA entity. If so, then the only issue could be having a >16" barrel might be a violation of FSA 2013? Unless it is still somehow blanketed by NFA SBR and thereby not a banned "rifle".

Now, if MSP views SBR's not at rifles but as pistols (which I've read a time or two) I would think a SBR (tax stamped item) with a 16" barrel would not be affected by FSA-2013 AWB.

erwos · Feb 9, 2016

Clutch said:
This clarifies things pretty well.

So, assuming MSP views SBR's as rifles, a SBR would need to be greater than 29" OAL. Therefore, if one were to tax stamp and declare a receiver as SBR and build it with a <16" barrel and meet a >29" OAL it would be good to go. This rifle is then an official and legal SBR meeting fed and state legislation.

This is how things are now.

Is there anything in fed law that restricts one from later mounting a >16" barrel to that receiver for a hunting trip or other? Is it still a formal "SBR" during the period if one did so?

Nothing is stopping you, and it ceases to be an SBR while it wears that barrel, as per the BATFE.

Now, if MSP views SBR's not at rifles but as pistols (which I've read a time or two) I would think a SBR (tax stamped item) with a 16" barrel would not be affected by FSA-2013 AWB.

It treats them simultaneously as both rifles and handguns. Yes, this is stupid and makes no sense.

Clutch · Feb 9, 2016

erwos said:
Nothing is stopping you, and it ceases to be an SBR while it wears that barrel, as per the BATFE.

Nothing, except MD FSA 2013. Correct?

Thanks for the info/feedback.

erwos · Feb 9, 2016

Clutch said:
Nothing, except MD FSA 2013. Correct?

Correct. You cannot just "stamp" a gun to dodge MDFSA2013's assault long gun provisions. It must really be in SBR configuration. The reason for this is because, back in the days when the assault long gun list was drafted, SBRs were explicitly removed during the legislative process, at the rest of the MSP. I desperately wish I could find the PDF with the notes, they were online at one point.

Clutch · Feb 9, 2016

erwos said:
Correct. You cannot just "stamp" a gun to dodge MDFSA2013's assault long gun provisions. It must really be in SBR configuration. The reason for this is because, back in the days when the assault long gun list was drafted, SBRs were explicitly removed during the legislative process, at the rest of the MSP. I desperately wish I could find the PDF with the notes, they were online at one point.

And "SBR Configuration" requires a <16" barrel? Or, Federally speaking I suppose it could be >16" barrel but less than 26" OAL (more to the OP's point/concern). The latter however would violate FSA 2013 (again the OP's point).

Thanks for your help and input. I'm struggling with these governing factors with respect to AK SBR builds post FSA and was trying to see if there was an allowance for a post FSA AK SBR WITH a 16" barrel. Many parts kits are offered with head spaced and installed 16" barrels. As well, not much is out there for <16" barrel options for SBR builds. So, extra work has to occur just for the slight 1/2" mod and to come in under 16" but over 29" OAL without stock mods etc that take the appearance of the rifle away from it's original form, etc. Looks like I'll be cutting and threading barrels...

erwos · Feb 9, 2016

Clutch said:
And "SBR Configuration" requires a <16" barrel? Or, Federally speaking I suppose it could be >16" barrel but less than 26" OAL (more to the OP's point/concern). The latter however would violate FSA 2013 (again the OP's point).

Yep. The non-coverage of SBRs as assault long guns is helpful, but not a panacea.

Clutch · Feb 9, 2016

From the OP's first of two listed sources is this (MSP):

With regard to short-barrel rifles included on the Handgun Roster, please note that a semi-automatic rifle with:

1) an overall length of less than 29" and/or
2) any two of the following:

1. a folding stock;

2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or

3. a flash suppressor

is a "copycat weapon" and is not eligible for sale to the general public (unless the purchaser had a purchase order for, or a completed application to purchase, the firearm prior to October 1, 2013). See, Sections 4-301 through 4-303 of the Criminal Law Article, Annotated Code of Maryland.

Overall length is measured between the extreme ends of the rifle along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. An attachment to the barrel, such as a muzzle brake or flash suppressor, should not be included in the measurement unless it is permanently affixed.

First off, I find this to be confusing verbiage: "...regard to short-barrel rifles included on the Handgun Roster, please note that a semi-automatic rifle...". Maybe it's just my lack of familiarity but which is it SBR, handgun or rifle??? It seems inherently and even intentionally confusing to be written this way.

Anyway, my real point/question is: an SBR with OAL < 29" (or 2 evil features) is a "copycat weapon" and is not eligible for sale to the general public. How does this restrict me from building an SBR with OAL < 29" and/or 2 evil features for personal, not for sale ever, use???

Perhaps I need to dig further into Sections 4-301 through 4-303 of the Criminal Law Article, Annotated Code of Maryland

Unfortunately, all I really want to do is build a 16" barrel rifle of >29" OAL. That's the ridiculous part...

erwos · Feb 9, 2016

Clutch said:
\
Anyway, my real point/question is: an SBR with OAL < 29" (or 2 evil features) is a "copycat weapon" and is not eligible for sale to the general public. How does this restrict me from building an SBR with OAL < 29" and/or 2 evil features for personal, not for sale ever, use???

The law also bans possession. Sorry.

Clutch · Feb 9, 2016

Thank you erwos.

aquaman · Feb 9, 2016

Buy spare barrel, lol.

OAL question and SBR's - Specifically the Tavor

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