Funding HQL Lawsuit

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  • Donating to Fund the HQL Lawsuit

    • Yes - I have/will donate as this is our best bet.

      Votes: 98 59.4%
    • Yes - Win or lose, I won't stop fighting.

      Votes: 31 18.8%
    • No - I don't think it stands snowballs chance.

      Votes: 29 17.6%
    • No - I think the HQL is a good common sense measure.

      Votes: 1 0.6%
    • Undecided - I'm going around in circles.

      Votes: 6 3.6%

    • Total voters
      165

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Wasn't the live fire removed from the bill but then added back in by the MSP? Now that we have a new head of the MSP couldn't they remove it?

    Yes. The MSP would have to publish proposed revisions and allow comment. They could then remove it. MSP is unlikely to do so without a legal push -- such is Maryland politics. I am actually glad, in a perverse way, that the MSP imposed this one shot requirement. It makes the 2A case that much stronger.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,545
    Actually, that is incorrect. No other state, for example, requires "one shot" of "live" ammunition. That means you have to have access to an established range, virtually impossible in some parts of MD if you don't drive or have a car. Public ranges are few and far between and the private ranges are generally restricted to members only. DC used to require 4 hours of instructor training but no live fire, until that was challenged in Heller II and they wisely amended it to require only on-line training for 30 minutes. You take all these requirements together, MD's HQL is by far the most restrictive and imposes the most obstacles of any state in the union. By the way, the FOID requirements of other states are 1. few in number and 2. none were challenged after Heller.

    While your argument looks good, there is something very bothering to me. MSI comes up with a magic $100K to get going, but never goes in to detail about the next $100K it's going to need and how quickly. I can not fathom the NRA not willing to spend $100K for a win like this. They could dig that kind of money under LaPierre's sofa cushions. $100K to win the HQL battle for NRA would pay ten fold in publicity and support for them from all gun owners. I'd surmise NRA sees this DOA, but am all ears what MSI legal team has to say, or is that all secret squirrel stuff..
     
    While your argument looks good, there is something very bothering to me. MSI comes up with a magic $100K to get going, but never goes in to detail about the next $100K it's going to need and how quickly. I can not fathom the NRA not willing to spend $100K for a win like this. They could dig that kind of money under LaPierre's sofa cushions. $100K to win the HQL battle for NRA would pay ten fold in publicity and support for them from all gun owners. I'd surmise NRA sees this DOA, but am all ears what MSI legal team has to say, or is that all secret squirrel stuff..

    The NRA doesn't fund lost causes. They already tried and failed to get similar laws ruled unconstitutional in Mass and NY...They know better than to pump their members money into law suits that they won't win...Apparently other groups didn't get the memo..
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    While your argument looks good, there is something very bothering to me. MSI comes up with a magic $100K to get going, but never goes in to detail about the next $100K it's going to need and how quickly. I can not fathom the NRA not willing to spend $100K for a win like this. They could dig that kind of money under LaPierre's sofa cushions. $100K to win the HQL battle for NRA would pay ten fold in publicity and support for them from all gun owners. I'd surmise NRA sees this DOA, but am all ears what MSI legal team has to say, or is that all secret squirrel stuff..

    Quite frankly, the NRA is "tapped out" and indeed, over budget, with all its other cases. Don't think we haven't checked. Did you know that Paul Clement's hourly rate is $1,100? Bet not. He represents the NRA in Peruta and other cases. The HQL is Maryland unique, so the NRA has a harder time justifying suits just for Maryland, even if they did have the money. The $100,000 is for costs and retainer. It won't be enough by itself to launch the kind of 2A suit we have in mind. It might be enough to file a more limited challenge, say, to the one shot requirement for the HQL. And there is no doubt that MSI can't do this by itself, but will need the help of ordinary people and other organizations. The gun shops, for example, are getting really hurt by the HQL. You like your gun shop? It may not be here next year.

    All of this is a process still under development. We have 18 months left to bring suit. Things are moving, I just can't tell you how it will work out. It is not secret "squirrel stuff," we just don't know yet. But I will say this: If you don't pony up to the bar and sue, you deserve what happens to you. And don't think it will stop with the HQL and these requirements -- incrementalism is the name of this game. So if the thousands of gun owners of Maryland just want to sit and bitch and moan rather than pitch in, then you will excuse me while I try to do something more productive. I have contributed $100s of actual cash and many thousands of $$ of lawyer time in this area. So I have put my money where my mouth is. To all that have contributed, thank you. For the rest, I say: "Where are you?"
     
    Last edited:

    MDFF2008

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 12, 2008
    24,735
    Yes. The MSP would have to publish proposed revisions and allow comment. They could then remove it. MSP is unlikely to do so without a legal push -- such is Maryland politics. I am actually glad, in a perverse way, that the MSP imposed this one shot requirement. It makes the 2A case that much stronger.

    Also, the fact that they chose 1 shot is significant. It's hard to say 1 shot enhances gun safety.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Also, the fact that they chose 1 shot is significant. It's hard to say 1 shot enhances gun safety.

    It is not a safety requirement, it is designed to create an obstacle to gun ownership by severely restricting access to the HQL. They can't defend it on that basis, at least not overtly, so they will call it a safety requirement and demand deference. If we don't call BS on them in a suit, then shame on us.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,545
    Quite frankly, the NRA is "tapped out" and indeed, over budget, with all its other cases. Don't think we haven't checked. Did you know that Paul Clement's hourly rate is $1,100? Bet not. He represents the NRA in Peruta and other cases. The HQL is Maryland unique, so the NRA has a harder time justifying suits just for Maryland, even if they did have the money. The $100,000 is for costs and retainer. It won't be enough by itself to launch the kind of 2A suit we have in mind. It might be enough to file a more limited challenge, say, to the one shot requirement for the HQL. And there is no doubt that MSI can't do this by itself, but will need the help of ordinary people and other organizations. The gun shops, for example, are getting really hurt by the HQL. You like your gun shop? It may not be here next year.

    All of this is a process still under development. We have 18 months left to bring suit. Things are moving, I just can't tell you how it will work out. It is not secret "squirrel stuff," we just don't know yet. But I will say this: If you don't pony up to the bar and sue, you deserve what happens to you. And don't think it will stop with the HQL and these requirements -- incrementalism is the name of this game. So if the thousands of gun owners of Maryland just want to sit and bitch and moan rather than pitch in, then you will excuse me while I try to do something more productive. I have contributed $100s of actual cash and many thousands of $$ of lawyer time in this area. So I have put my money where my mouth is. To all that have contributed, thank you. For the rest, I say: "Where are you?"

    Well I did figure $100K was not enough. Being in ten years is it now? ; MSI has never made finances public, there is no way to verify if these contribution goals are even realistic if MSI keeps doing things the same way. The honest to goodness hope is selling Charles Koch. If pitched well, pocket change to him and has contributed 100's of Millions to non profits like CATO, Heritage, Mercata etc. I believe selling 2A to Mr. Koch wouldn't be hard. Need to search for a warm lead to him. Need to think way out of the box for big money. Too bad this isn't Palm Beach, they draw six figures at tea parties for library funds..
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Well I did figure $100K was not enough. Being in ten years is it now? ; MSI has never made finances public, there is no way to verify if these contribution goals are even realistic if MSI keeps doing things the same way. The honest to goodness hope is selling Charles Koch. If pitched well, pocket change to him and has contributed 100's of Millions to non profits like CATO, Heritage, Mercata etc. I believe selling 2A to Mr. Koch wouldn't be hard. Need to search for a warm lead to him. Need to think way out of the box for big money. Too bad this isn't Palm Beach, they draw six figures at tea parties for library funds..

    2A advocacy in Maryland is years behind states like NY, VA or Conn. in terms of fund-raising for 2A causes. The term "BGOS" comes to mind. But, you gotta start somewhere. MSI has become a forceful 2A entity in MD coming from nothing. We have made huge strides and getting better and better. Anyway, $100,000 is enough, probably, for a limited suit, but a limited suit means limited results. You don't get anything you don't pay for. BTW, if you know Mr. Koch, please don't hesitate...........

    PS: If you want to question the officers and BoD of MSI with respect to finances, become an executive member, come to the meetings and make your voice heard. Better yet, run for a seat on the Board or become an officer. Actually DO something. Snarking from the sidelines is just too easy and unworthy of a 2A advocate.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,545
    2A advocacy in Maryland is years behind states like NY, VA or Conn. in terms of fund-raising for 2A causes. The term "BGOS" comes to mind. But, you gotta start somewhere. MSI has become a forceful 2A entity in MD coming from nothing. We have made huge strides and getting better and better. Anyway, $100,000 is enough, probably, for a limited suit, but a limited suit means limited results. You don't get anything you don't pay for. BTW, if you know Mr. Koch, please don't hesitate...........

    PS: If you want to question the officers and BoD of MSI with respect to finances, become an executive member, come to the meetings and make your voice heard. Better yet, run for a seat on the Board or become an officer. Actually DO something. Snarking from the sidelines is just too easy and unworthy of a 2A advocate.

    One shouldn't have to pay for transparency. If MSI wants to be nontransparent and it works for them, so be it. Questions or comments that go off script from the MSI expected cychophantic rah rah stuff is frequently labelled snarks. It seems MSI fell in to a over promise, under deliver with the Hogan whisperers, but that will pass. As a current sustaining member these are not gripes, but sincere observations.
     
    2A advocacy in Maryland is years behind states like NY, VA or Conn. in terms of fund-raising for 2A causes. The term "BGOS" comes to mind. But, you gotta start somewhere. MSI has become a forceful 2A entity in MD coming from nothing. We have made huge strides and getting better and better. Anyway, $100,000 is enough, probably, for a limited suit, but a limited suit means limited results. You don't get anything you don't pay for. BTW, if you know Mr. Koch, please don't hesitate...........

    PS: If you want to question the officers and BoD of MSI with respect to finances, become an executive member, come to the meetings and make your voice heard. Better yet, run for a seat on the Board or become an officer. Actually DO something. Snarking from the sidelines is just too easy and unworthy of a 2A advocate.


    I see them doing a handful of gun show appearances and donation boxes in gun stores..not much else..I would hardly call them a forceful 2A entity. Where are the requests for flooding the inbox and mail box of Hogan to "persuade" him to allow self defense as a viable G&S reason? Why aren't they shaming the anti 2A delegates and senators by making their stance public to the entire state and making sure that people know that they could be come victims thanks to these people's immoral stance on self defense? How many people in the state think that the police have a legal or moral obligation to protect them and their property when just the opposite is true? The SHALL ISSUE campaign needs to be multi faceted...Educate those who would support the idea...SHAME those who fight it...Press the issue and push the envelope...It's not gun owners and 2A supporters that need to be convinced that SHALL ISSUE is good for the state..there are PLENTY of non gun owning supporters of the 2nd amendment. Why aren't they trying to garner support from them and anyone else sympathetic to the cause?

    You are right about one point...2A advocacy in Maryland is decades behind most other state...When state's like Illinois can get permits something is WAY wrong...It seems to me that MSI likes the idea of SHALL ISSUE but ONLY if THEY are the group to bring it about... This issue is about public safety and self defense, not about patting ones self on the back for making it happen.How much money do people donate to MSI? Where is it and what's it being spent on? I'm not talking about the HQL suit...that's a different topic all together...One that I personally do not believe MSI should be involved with. HQL has little to do with SHALL ISSUE...and frankly the HQL is small potatoes compared to the ability to conceal carry. Yes, it's an unconstitutional law in pro gun right people's eyes...but not to the state and not to the court...move on...focus on getting a SHALL ISSUE but for the time being convince Larry Hogan that self defense should be the ONLY reason that a person needs to defend themselves..I see plenty of people here who are making excuses for Hogan...Larry Hogan is a politician...and the only thing politicians understand is "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"...if we make it so he cannot ignore us he will respond...get in his face and do not get out until you get what you want...it works for liberals it will damn sure work for us...we are his base...if he loses us he loses in 2018..
     

    MDFF2008

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 12, 2008
    24,735
    It seems to me that MSI likes the idea of SHALL ISSUE but ONLY if THEY are the group to bring it about...

    You do know that SAF paid for the Woollard lawsuit...
     

    AssMan

    Meh...
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 27, 2011
    16,218
    Somewhere on the James River, VA
    Ok. I'll bite and re-up as a sustaining member. I had planned to be a VA resident by now, and support VCDL as that's where I generally exercise my 2A rights, but looks like I'll be stuck here for several more months at a minimum - and possibly several years.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,545
    ......How much money do people donate to MSI? Where is it and what's it being spent on? I'm not talking about the HQL suit...that's a different topic all together...One that I personally do not believe MSI should be involved with. HQL has little to do with SHALL ISSUE...and frankly the HQL is small potatoes compared to the ability to conceal carry. ......

    Very good point here. Why is a Shall Issue organization now branching out fighting a HQL, when it has gotten nowhere with it's original intent? Could the $100k be better spent on carry rights lobbying? Lets be real, ninety plus percent doing the most bitching over a HQL are ones exempt from training. I'm really not in to court battles and spending small fortunes on principals that are frankly just to get rid of a nuisance. The HQL is a crap law, but Scalia himself is on record that schemes like that are not unconstitutional. I can see the loss now, "It is just a tax" .... thank you Roberts..
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,545
    Ok. I'll bite and re-up as a sustaining member. I had planned to be a VA resident by now, and support VCDL as that's where I generally exercise my 2A rights, but looks like I'll be stuck here for several more months at a minimum - and possibly several years.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Sorry, that is not club level. You are thinking Executive Member.
     

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