"Two to the chest, one to the head" Really?

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  • Schwabe

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 20, 2010
    3,936
    Sho'a
    nt saying anything, my eyes are not good enough anymore to hit anything other than center mass but this guy does it

    [YT]JbC5mEc6ipE[/YT]
     

    jaygibson

    Active Member
    Aug 17, 2010
    405
    Great Mills, MD
    Ever do the Tueller Drill?

    A knife wielding attacker stands 21 FEET from you. On your signal the attacker will charge you while you attempt to draw and fire your pistol(Red Gun or Airsoft, of course) at the attacker.

    How long do you think it takes the average person to cover the 7 yards to you?

    About 1.5 Seconds on Average depending on the physical condition of the attacker. Some drill times I have seen have been as fast as 1.2 seconds.

    Now, how long does a knife have to be to produce a fatal stab wound? Puncture wound to the heart being the obvious

    Go ahead and look that one up so you can see why your statement about a sword wielding attacker is ridiculous and could cost you your life if you continue to operate with such a mindset.

    I have done this drill and it is very hard to get a weapon out of the holster and into play fast enough. That is why we had to learn to create distance and defensive tactics.
     

    Kilroy

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 27, 2011
    3,069
    nt saying anything, my eyes are not good enough anymore to hit anything other than center mass but this guy does it

    That's static range/gun games training. I can do those same exact drills, just slower. I want him to do that on a moving target while trying to avoid incoming simunitions. I'd bet he can't.
     

    FFMike

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 4, 2010
    1,839
    Howard County
    I did the FBI Drill years ago when I worked for an Armorred Car Service. I had to pass that portion to be permitted to carry a firearm (rangemaster/company rules). It took a while but I did it. I know I couldn't do that now some 20 years later!
     

    cowboy321

    Active Member
    Apr 21, 2009
    554
    Ever do the Tueller Drill?

    A knife wielding attacker stands 21 FEET from you. On your signal the attacker will charge you while you attempt to draw and fire your pistol(Red Gun or Airsoft, of course) at the attacker.

    How long do you think it takes the average person to cover the 7 yards to you?

    About 1.5 Seconds on Average depending on the physical condition of the attacker. Some drill times I have seen have been as fast as 1.2 seconds.

    Now, how long does a knife have to be to produce a fatal stab wound? Puncture wound to the heart being the obvious

    Go ahead and look that one up so you can see why your statement about a sword wielding attacker is ridiculous and could cost you your life if you continue to operate with such a mindset.

    I dont walk around carrying pistols since it is illegal in MD without a CCW. No one has ever stabbed, shot me or shot at me. If confronted with some one holding a knife I would warn him that I was armed and brandish the weapon. If he starts hurtling at me That is different. That means he is crazy and I would use deadly force. But I would not shoot someone who was holding a knife at 21 feet away. This would actually give him the right of self defense!
     

    3rdRcn

    RIP
    Industry Partner
    Sep 9, 2007
    8,961
    Harford County
    I dont walk around carrying pistols since it is illegal in MD without a CCW. No one has ever stabbed, shot me or shot at me. If confronted with some one holding a knife I would warn him that I was armed and brandish the weapon. If he starts hurtling at me That is different. That means he is crazy and I would use deadly force. But I would not shoot someone who was holding a knife at 21 feet away. This would actually give him the right of self defense!

    I think you missed the point.

    If he is brandishing a knife and threatening me with it from that close then I am well within my rights to draw on him and take him out. You really need to do the drill that Huck is talking about and see that someone armed that is that close can easily cover that distance and stab you multiple times within 1.5 seconds. Then have someone time you and see how long it takes you to draw and get off 1 shot, you will be a believer.
     

    FrankOceanXray

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 29, 2008
    12,028
    And if the 21 ft drill is enough to justify for law enforcement, then it would satisfy the court's need for a citizen.....
     

    mcbruzdzinski

    NRA Training Counselor
    Industry Partner
    Aug 28, 2007
    7,101
    Catonsville MD
    Center mass and don't stop shooting until they are no longer a threat. That's the way I practice.

    When Patty and I were taking our NRA PPITH/PPOTH, we had the luxuryt of shooting at a range that is used by law enforcement and many of our TC's were LEOs/ex-LEOs.

    One of the drills we appreciated the most was having to shoot in low light and complete darkness at targets only 5 feet away. The goal was to get center of mass rather than head shots. It is amazing how distracting the muzzle flash can be at first as most of us never see it during our normal shooting at a range.

    In my opinion, train for hitteng center mass and do not give up until the bad guy is no longer a threat.
     

    Schwabe

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 20, 2010
    3,936
    Sho'a
    That's static range/gun games training. I can do those same exact drills, just slower. I want him to do that on a moving target while trying to avoid incoming simunitions. I'd bet he can't.

    That is the point of static training. Creating muscle memory, I bet he can, he does it before he even thinks or he wouldn't get three shots where he wants them in under 2 seconds.

    He may miss one or two but I would bet anything that he would get three shots off in under two seconds and hit something with two shots heading for center mass and one shot roughly for the head.
     

    Kilroy

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 27, 2011
    3,069
    That is the point of static training. Creating muscle memory, I bet he can, he does it before he even thinks or he wouldn't get three shots where he wants them in under 2 seconds.

    He may miss one or two but I would bet anything that he would get three shots off in under two seconds and hit something with two shots heading for center mass and one shot roughly for the head.

    I highly doubt it, but I guess we'll never know huh?
     

    racinghoss

    Missing Alaska
    Nov 3, 2008
    1,567
    I would sure avoid using a firearm on a human being in a parking lot unless he has a firearm or at least a sword. Try everything possible to avoid ruining your life. Lethal force is really a very rare and extreme measure taken by CCW holders in Md or elsewhere.

    Ok, master. Thanks for the lessson.
     

    cowboy321

    Active Member
    Apr 21, 2009
    554
    I think you missed the point.

    If he is brandishing a knife and threatening me with it from that close then I am well within my rights to draw on him and take him out. You really need to do the drill that Huck is talking about and see that someone armed that is that close can easily cover that distance and stab you multiple times within 1.5 seconds. Then have someone time you and see how long it takes you to draw and get off 1 shot, you will be a believer.

    I would tell him that he will be shot unless he drops the knife or goes home. Or what the heck, why not have a foot race or a knife fight with the loser.
    I just don't like shooting people who don't have loaded and fully operationall guns.

    I guess I am twisted! :party29:
     
    Last edited:

    3rdRcn

    RIP
    Industry Partner
    Sep 9, 2007
    8,961
    Harford County
    I would tell him that he will be shot unless he drops the knife or goes home. Or what the heck, why not have a foot race or a knife fight with the loser.
    I just don't like shooting people who don't have loaded and fully operationall guns.

    I guess I am twisted! :party29:

    I was thinkng of another word but we can go with twisted.:D
     

    LONGSHOT

    Active Member
    May 7, 2011
    859
    ABERDEEN,HARFORD
    IN THE 70'S THIS WAS CALLED THE 'EL PRESADENTI DRILL AND IT WAS SCORED THAT WAY IN THE SHOOTING GAMES. IT CARRIED OVER TO SOME WANNEBES.TRY THIS.PUT TARGET ON WAGON WITH 25 FEET OF ROPE.HAVE FREIND STANDNEXT TO YOU,ON GO HE RUNS PULLING WAGON TO YOU.DRAW AND FIRE .SEE HOW MANY HITS BEFORE WAGON HITS YOU., FIRST PRACTICE W/EMPTY GUN. IN MARYLAND YOU SHOOT PERP W/KNIFE OVER 25 FEET AWAY,GOOD LUCK IN COURT.
     

    Huckleberry

    No One of Consequence
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 19, 2007
    23,308
    Severn & Lewes
    IN THE 70'S THIS WAS CALLED THE 'EL PRESADENTI DRILL AND IT WAS SCORED THAT WAY IN THE SHOOTING GAMES. IT CARRIED OVER TO SOME WANNEBES.TRY THIS.PUT TARGET ON WAGON WITH 25 FEET OF ROPE.HAVE FREIND STANDNEXT TO YOU,ON GO HE RUNS PULLING WAGON TO YOU.DRAW AND FIRE .SEE HOW MANY HITS BEFORE WAGON HITS YOU., FIRST PRACTICE W/EMPTY GUN. IN MARYLAND YOU SHOOT PERP W/KNIFE OVER 25 FEET AWAY,GOOD LUCK IN COURT.

    Sorry but that's not the "El Presidente" drill and you're not even close in your description of the El Presidente.

    Also, the Tueller Drill will work with other weapons since it is a drill to develop your reaction time by eliminating hesitation and helping to control and defeat your biggest mind killer, Fear.
     

    11b10

    Member
    Jun 15, 2010
    99
    Union Bridge, MD
    I was taught the body armor drill years ago in LE, and I have seen other instructors teach it to civilians in courses that I've either been in, or observed. I think the civilian students think they're being taught something cool and tactical. I'm not sure of the instructor's reasons for teaching it.

    I for one, do not teach it to civilians for a number of reasons....

    Actually everyone who is not Federalized into the Military is a CIVILLIIAN, I am ex-mil and now a citizen/civilian, the police are a citizen/civilian agency.

    "A civilian under international humanitarian law (also known as the laws of war) is a person who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces or other militia. Civilians are distinct from combatants. They are afforded a degree of legal protection from the effects of war and military occupation. The term "civilian" is also often used metaphorically to refer to people who are not members of a particular profession or occupation, especially by civilian law enforcement agencies, which often adopt rank structures emulating those of military units."

    BDU's and a rifle does not make you military,
     

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