Anyone have a BATF Trace Experience?

sar82007 · Mar 30, 2015

My friend didn't have a credit card to buy a firearm from an on-line retailer. We're also both legally allowed to own firearms. So I bought it for him and had it shipped to the local FFL and he filed the 4473 in his name. Short story he got into a situation where the police are doing a trace. I am sure my name will come up in there somewhere. Should I expect a visit from the BATF?

AssMan · Mar 30, 2015

So you paid, but he filled out the paperwork?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sar82007 · Mar 30, 2015

Exactly and it was his to keep its just he didn't have a CC so I helped him buy it.

-Z/28- · Mar 30, 2015

As long as you're both legally able to own it, I don't see there being an issue.

AssMan · Mar 30, 2015

You might get a few questions, but I don't see how you did anything illegal from a BATFE perspective. Now could you be considered an accessory/contributing/etc. to whatever crime was committed? I don't have any idea.

IANAL though so the above is nothing more than an opinion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sar82007 · Mar 30, 2015

Yes Z28 we're both legally allowed to own. I have done my fair share of 4473s I was just helping him build his collection. Even if I am in no wrong doing. I do not believe I should be talking to them without an attorney.

AssMan · Mar 30, 2015

sar82007 said:
Even if I am in no wrong doing. I do not believe I should be talking to them without an attorney.

Probably the smart move.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rseymorejr · Mar 30, 2015

It seems like the gun legally belonged to your friend all along. What would look really bad is if you had possession of it. Next time tell him to get a prepaid debit card.

sar82007 · Mar 30, 2015

I was not in possession of it. So it wasn't like it was a straw purchase or anything. I guess I'm just being antsy.

good guy 176 · Mar 30, 2015

sar82007 said:
Yes Z28 we're both legally allowed to own. I have done my fair share of 4473s I was just helping him build his collection. Even if I am in no wrong doing. I do not believe I should be talking to them without an attorney.

No problem here and no need for an attorney at this point. The FFL was responsible for doing the required checks on the buyer before releasing the firearm, and you had nothing to do with that. If asked by law enforcement, be honest with them and relax. They have no issue with you. I have a friend in MD who is an attorney and a gun rights advocate and gun owner, if you feel the need for a referral. He's good and has testified for us 2A folks in Annapolis.

Lew--Ranger63

ken792 · Mar 30, 2015

You're fine. He bought the gun, he did the paperwork, and he is the end user. How he got his money to the online retailer to pay for the gun is irrelevant. The online retailer, being an FFL, logged it out to the local dealer, not to either of you.

sar82007 · Mar 30, 2015

good guy 176 said:
No problem here and no need for an attorney at this point. I was party to a similar purchase recently.

Glad to see I am not alone. I am very glad to see your case worked out very well.

sar82007 · Mar 30, 2015

ken792 said:
You're fine. He bought the gun, he did the paperwork, and he is the end user. How he got his money to the online retailer to pay for the gun is irrelevant. The online retailer, being an FFL, logged it out to the local dealer, not to either of you.

That is good to know. Well that is relieving.

traveller · Mar 30, 2015

Talk to an attorney. Do not post anything further here.

A couple of years some guy got pinched for purchasing through the Glock LE program and having the handgun transferred to his relative at a FFL. The thing went up to the supreme court, iirc the ATF prevailed with their claim that it was a straw-purchase as it was clear at the time the transaction was made that he would not be the final recipient.

http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/209468-supreme-court-rejects-straw-gun-buys

As you didn't fill out any transfer forms, you should be ok, but you may be in serious trouble. No comments to LE without your attorney present.

ken792 · Mar 30, 2015

traveller said:
Talk to an attorney. Do not post anything further here.

A couple of years some guy got pinched for purchasing through the Glock LE program and having the handgun transferred to his relative at a FFL. The thing went up to the supreme court, iirc the ATF prevailed with their claim that it was a straw-purchase as it was clear at the time the transaction was made that he would not be the final recipient.

http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/209468-supreme-court-rejects-straw-gun-buys

As you didn't fill out any transfer forms, you should be ok, but you may be in serious trouble. No comments to LE without your attorney present.

Technically, it was a straw purchase. Abramski filled out a Form 4473 and lied when he said that he was buying the Glock for personal use. Now if he had simply ordered the Glock straight to his uncle's FFL and never had done anything to take possession of it himself, he would have been fine.

There does need to be reform with that. Many otherwise law abiding gun owners do straw purchases without realizing it. Someone might go to Cabelas, and then call their buddy or even a family member who couldn't make it and ask if he would like him to pick up a gun for him. The Amish do that all the time.

Abramski was just really unlucky that the cops came looking for his Glock due to an unrelated incident and he told them exactly what he had done with it. He made the mistake of having his uncle give him the money beforehand, which showed that he had bought/papered out the Glock with the intention of giving it to someone else. The fact that he sent it to his uncle's FFL was irrelevant.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...aw-purchase-rules-in-abramski-v-united-states

sar82007 · Mar 31, 2015

This case has blown my mind. What an informative article. So you could be doing a straw purchase and not even know it.

zoostation · Mar 31, 2015

sar82007 said:
This case has blown my mind. What an informative article. So you could be doing a straw purchase and not even know it.

The reason the guy got in trouble in the Abramski case is he lied on the 4473, said he was the final recipient of the gun when he was not going to be, and he knew he was not going to be. Apparently they wanted to take advantage of the Glock LE discount, which the uncle couldn't get. The uncle had already sent him a check for the gun when he filled out the 4473, and the government had a copy of it. It was a chickenshit case, they even transferred the gun properly to the uncle in Pennsylvania at a PA dealer through a NICS check, but still he did lie on the 4473 in the beginning. That is not your issue. That is a totally different case. I think however the gun was paid for is irrelevant, and you have nothing to worry about. It's truthfulness on the 4473 that counts. I am not a lawyer, yada, yada, yada...

sar82007 · Mar 31, 2015

Yeah I noticed that too. My friend was the end user.

pwoolford · Mar 31, 2015

zoostation said:
The reason the guy got in trouble in the Abramski case is he lied on the 4473, said he was the final recipient of the gun when he was not going to be, and he knew he was not going to be. Apparently they wanted to take advantage of the Glock LE discount, which the uncle couldn't get. The uncle had already sent him a check for the gun when he filled out the 4473, and the government had a copy of it. It was a chickenshit case, they even transferred the gun properly to the uncle in Pennsylvania at a PA dealer through a NICS check, but still he did lie on the 4473 in the beginning. That is not your issue. That is a totally different case. I think however the gun was paid for is irrelevant, and you have nothing to worry about. It's truthfulness on the 4473 that counts. I am not a lawyer, yada, yada, yada...

Completely agree with the above. Maybe you owed him $ and that is how you paid him back. Some people are lazy and clueless to the online world too. You didn't fill out the 4473 so I wouldn't worry about it.

jimbobborg · Mar 31, 2015

I had this happen with a gun I purchased a while back. The FFL I got it from informed me that BATF ran a trace on the Taurus I bought from him a while back. Fortunately for me, I had sold the pistol via consignment at another FFL. Not sure what the deal was with that. BATF didn't tell him.

Anyone have a BATF Trace Experience?

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Active Member

Meh...

Active Member

I wanna go fast

Meh...

Active Member

Meh...

Ultimate Member

Active Member

R.I.P.

Ultimate Member

Active Member

Active Member

The one with two L

Ultimate Member

Active Member

, ,

Active Member

AR15's make me :-)

Oddball caliber fan

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics