Final opinions on 410 for home defense

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  • alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    I don't really know who it is that can't handle a 12 gauge. I've seen several <100 pound women handle shoulder fired 12 gauges with no problems after the first two or three "learning" shots. Sure there's a kick, but like any other gun if you manage it, it won't manage you.


    That being said, I'm sure as hell not volunteering to get nailed by a .410...


    A 12ga might be too much for her, but my Nana (gramma to the non German folk) likes the AK better anyways;)

    Like they say, don't mess with old people, if they are too tired to fight, they'll just kill you:D
    IMAGE_023.jpg
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    The only reason I could see birdshot out of a pistol being useful is where overpenetration is a major issue. Of course a face full of #8 wouldn't tickle, it would have almost no hope of incapacitating a determined attacker, the pellets won't penetrate auto glass (good news for the guy in the next lane;)), a thick jacket or even a good pair of safety glasses, and the short barrel cuts velocity dramatically. I fired one, and was not impressed, accuracy with 45 colt is not great compared to most any snubby, and the shot shells lose enough velocity to reduce penetration to almost nothing. It would make a good snake pistol for ranchers, or defense, it would only meet 12" of penetration with a 45colt load, buckshot is just going too slow to penetrate sufficiently, although even that is better than the bird shot load which I would put into about the same category as pepper spray. I would prefer most any compact pistol or revolver in a service caliber to that unweildy behemoth if you were in the confines of a car.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    thats a shame that the judge doesn't keep the velocity. i thought it would be nice to have a pocket size shotgun.

    they do have some of these shorties at freedom in pa but i doubt theyre legal in md.
    00-2-5-08-0125.jpg
    They are legal in MD as long as you have the proper federal tax stamp. All NFA devices besides exploding DD are allowed in MD (and even explosive DD might be legal with an explosive license, but don't hold me to that.)
     

    fivepointstar

    Thank you MD-Goodbye
    Apr 28, 2008
    30,714
    3rd Rock from the Sun
    I just want to Revisit this topic of .410 being an adequate HD round.

    GUns & Ammo has an article in this months issue. I haven't read it yet but the Judge out....wondering if the .410 Tactical Shotty is a good idea or a waste of time

    Thoughts?
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    I posted a few other things in this thread explaining, but 410 can be a viable defensive tool, and 12ga isn't the only effective shotgun round there is, and there are several strengths and weaknesses between the two that have to be considered in the choice. It's more like a 9mm vs 45 comparison, or revolvers vs autoloaders argument than a "12ga works, 410 doesn't".

    A 410 long gun, loaded appropriately has a lot of power compared to handguns, and more powerful than several calibers that would be deemed good for defense, and while not as powerful as 12 and 20 ga, it is no slouch, especially with 3" 000 5 pellet magnum buck or brenneke slugs. 12GA is normally loaded with 8 pellets of 000, so in essence you get 3 more pellets from a 12ga 000 load, and about double the recoil, not exactly a worthless pop gun vs the hammer of thor, they both are adequate for most situations. In a handgun length barrel, the 3" 410 buck load loses so much velocity, it generally loses the ability to penetrate well. There are other loads, and some new ones, one is 3 "defensive disks" over bbs (basically flattened pellets designed to stack better, and eliminate the problem with pellets getting crushed from the shot getting rammed into the forcing cone). The BBs are likely worthless, and the effectiveness of the disk shaped pellets remains to be seen.
    The downside is that most shotguns are tube fed, and there is no gain in capacity with a skinny 3" shell vs a fat 2 3/4" shell, so even though an effective gauge, you are limited in capacity, and reload speed as with most other shotguns. with box mag 410 though, they get a huge boost in capacity, like the Saiga 410 with 10 and 15rd box mags, it could be superior to a tube fed 12 ga in some uses where capacity is an issue, and fast followup shots are needed. In a pump or break action though, a larger 12 or 20 gauge would probably be a better choice, due to the high price of 410 shells, and no real gains other than greatly reduced recoil.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    I was thinking of making a .410 tactical for my girl to ave only because of the kick factor.

    If she can handle 20ga or reduced 12 ga, it would be a much better choice, not because 410 isn't effective, but because of ammo cost, parts availability, and ammo versatility. 12ga or 20 ga bird shot target loads costs about 1/2 of what 410 does, buck and slug loads are only a little more costly, but hard to find locally, where 20ga slugs and 12ga slug and buck are everywhere. there are also a lot more guns to choose from. The downside is that 20ga shells can't stack the large and effective 00 and 000 buck used in 12 and 410, so for defense you are best armed with slugs, and have the option of #3 buck shot if overpenetration is of critical importance, being it may not penetrate sufficiently. As far as reducing recoil, a 12ga 9X00 buck load generates about 24ft/lb of recoil from a 7lb gun, a 20ga 20 pellet #3 buck load generates about 18ft/lb from the same gun, a 410 5 pellet 000 buck has about 10ft/lbs from the same 7lb gun. These are all pretty much the most practical buck shot loads in each gauge, with the 12ga and 20ga being 2 3/4" shells, and 3" 410, you can see how recoil compares, the 20 ga has most of the power of a 12ga, but about 25% less recoil, the 410 has less than half of the recoil of the 12ga, and just a little more than 1/2 of the recoil from the 20ga. The problem is with weight, 410s and even 20ga guns tend to be smaller and lighter than 12ga guns, so instead of having 2 guns where one has a lot less recoil, yoe pretty much get a big gun, and a small light gun with about the same recoil, if the 20ga in the example weighs 5.5lbs instead of 7, then it's recoil matches that of the 12ga.
     

    hvymax

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Apr 19, 2010
    14,011
    Dentsville District 28
    When the crap hits the fan the last thing you will notice is recoil. If recoil is a major issue get one of the many semi-auto HD toys in 12 ga and you should have anything short of an armored vehicle covered.
     

    august1410

    Marcas Registradas
    Apr 10, 2009
    22,561
    New Bern, NC
    Funny....i was thinking of the same thing for my wife and/or daughter. they're both pretty small.

    I like alucard's suggestion of 20ga

    I think 20ga would be the route to take. However, Maddie was able to shoot the 12ga Mossy from the hip, and now she wants to shoulder it and give it a whirl.
     

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