SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I was under the impression that the state has yet to file a motion for a stay?
    As noted by others, they have filed a motion for a stay. What you may be thinking of is a notice of appeal. A notice of appeal is not filed until the Rule 59(e) motion is decided. The pendency of that Rule 59(e) motion means that the time to file a notice of appeal has not yet started to run. It would be premature if it was filed now. Judge Legg is likely to rule on the stay and on the 59(e) motion at the same time. We will have a much better idea of where we are when that happens. None of this is necessarily simple.
     

    pfrazier

    Member
    Nov 10, 2010
    82
    Columbia
    This may be a dumb question, but why would he rule positively on a stay or appeal if it is against his ruling and he was VERY careful on the verbage of that ruling
     

    Auckland

    Get On My Horse
    Apr 6, 2008
    1,540
    The Dena
    If Judge Legg denies the stay and appeal then it goes to the next court correct? Do we have to wait until the Supreme Court decision before we would ever see a CCW permit? I'd hate to throw money away on a CCW attempt.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    This may be a dumb question, but why would he rule positively on a stay or appeal if it is against his ruling and he was VERY careful on the verbage of that ruling

    Not dumb at all. There is an elaborate 4 part test that he has to apply in ruling on a stay motion and the inquiry is different than the merits. Folks here probably don't fully appreciate this, but striking down the laws of a sovereign state is a big deal. Judges should do that with caution. The state is waving the bloody flag of public safety, a matter that traditionally lies within the province of the state. Besides, don't you know that "GUNS ARE DANGEROUS"!!! :rolleyes: (Sorry, couldn't help myself). It is hard issue addressed to the court's equitable discretion.
     

    zombiehunter

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 8, 2008
    6,505
    The above is correct. Without an order specifically injuncting them or directing them to specifically do something, their position is that they can still apply G&S. There was another email posting here about them not denying people (which is a smart move on their part), they're going to sit on the apps until the 59(e) process is complete in regards to the clarification. Once that is done, and assuming a stay is NOT granted by either the district court or the 4th circuit, they must proceed with the judge's actual orders that come out of this 59(e) motion. esqappellate knows what he's talking about.

    After the judge issues his 59(e) clarification, that is when we can consider policing the MSP in regards to their processing. Not a minute before.

    But even if the stay is denied, they could still choose to hold applications until this is sorted out, right?

    I think Gray's response should answer that.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    If Judge Legg denies the stay and appeal then it goes to the next court correct? Do we have to wait until the Supreme Court decision before we would ever see a CCW permit? I'd hate to throw money away on a CCW attempt.

    Right, from Judge Legg, it goes to the court of appeals in Richmond. If they lose there, conceivably they could ask the SCT to review the case before judgment but they are not going to that. Such requests are extremely rare and even more rarely granted. Probably not to going to happen here. The courts are cautious. Understand this: Judge Legg's order changes the status quo with an order striking down a state statute on constitutional grounds which are, legally, still subject to intense legal debate. It is not unusual for the courts to issue a stay keeping the status quo intact pending completion of litigation. A stay would not mean we would lose on appeal, it may just mean that the courts want to proceed cautiously. You will have to read carefully any stay order to assess the court's rationale.
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,367
    White Marsh
    But even if the stay is denied, they could still choose to hold applications until this is sorted out, right?

    If the stay is denied by both Judge Legg and CA4 and Maryland continues to hold applications, there could be some fireworks.

    If Legg clarifies his ruling to the extent that he formally orders Maryland to proceed without G&S and they continue to hold/deny if the stay is denied at both levels, there will be fireworks.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    That's my thought. MSP is going to wait until a Supreme Court says they are right.

    In their stay and Rule 59(e) papers, the State has asked for a stay because the State's policy is to obey a federal court declaratory judgment even in the absence of an actual injunction. That is not unusual for a state. I will take them at their word. The state will not intentionally lie to a federal court. It's just really dumb and these guys are not dumb.
     

    pfrazier

    Member
    Nov 10, 2010
    82
    Columbia
    Not dumb at all. There is an elaborate 4 part test that he has to apply in ruling on a stay motion and the inquiry is different than the merits. Folks here probably don't fully appreciate this, but striking down the laws of a sovereign state is a big deal. Judges should do that with caution. The state is waving the bloody flag of public safety, a matter that traditionally lies within the province of the state. Besides, don't you know that "GUNS ARE DANGEROUS"!!! :rolleyes: (Sorry, couldn't help myself). It is hard issue addressed to the court's equitable discretion.

    That sounds reasonable and that may be the reason that he took so long to write his opinion, so that it would pass that four part test and weather any appeal process.
    I would think that the State would have to provide statistics on why trusting their citizens is dangerous which I am sure that Alan Gura would EASILY shoot it down LOL.
     

    MDresident

    Active Member
    Sep 22, 2010
    126
    A stay would also permit the Maryland General Assembly to consider whether to
    enact legislation in response to this Court’s decision that might address, in whole or in
    part, the grounds on which this Court has held the law unconstitutional while providing
    more protection for public safety than would a wholesale abandonment of the “good and
    substantial reason” requirement for permits to wear and carry handguns.

    This pretty much sums up Maryland's position in this area. This will go on for decades.....:sad20:
     

    X-Factor

    I don't say please
    Jun 2, 2009
    5,244
    Calvert County
    Sent this:

    Sir:

    In the light of Judge Leggs's District Court ruling in the case of Woolard v. Sheridan, will the Maryland State Police issue Handgun Permits that reflect THAT decision (striking the "Good and Substantial" clause), or continue to issue them based ON "Good and Substantial" and the old way of issuance? I would refer you to page 20 of Judge Legg's decision:

    "At bottom, this case rests on a simple proposition: If the Government wishes to burden a right guaranteed by thœe Constitution, it may do so provided that it can show a satisfactory justification and a sufficiently adapted method. The showing, however, is always the Government's to make. A citizen may not be required to offer a "good and substantial reason" why he should be permitted to exercise hus rights. The right's existence is all the reason he needs."

    Hence the need for my question. Will MSP NOW honor the spirit and letter of Judge Legg's decision or continue to issue permits based on struck down encumbrances?

    I look forward to your reply and remain Respectfully Yours,

    **X-Factor**

    His reply:

    Dear Mr.

    In applying Maryland's handgun permit law,the Maryland State Police will continue to be guided by the courts' interpretation of the law. The Attorney General's Office is asking the trial judge for clarification of the judge's order and is asking the trial judge to keep the "good and substantial reason" requirement in place during the appeal process. The trial judge has not yet ruled on whether the "good and substantial reason" requirement will remain in effect. If you have any further questions concerning the handgun permit process,you should contact the Licensing Division of the Maryland State Police.

    Mark H. Bowen

    Assistant Attorney General
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    IIRC crime in MD (may issue) is 40% higher than the national average. Crime in VA (shall issue) is 40% lower than the national average.

    Those stats will be hard to defend using public safety as a reason.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    This pretty much sums up Maryland's position in this area. This will go on for decades.....:sad20:

    Probably not. Whether a stay is granted or not, MD is free to pass legislation that could impact this litigation. They know that, of course; it is well established. But I seriously doubt that they want to be seen as forever standing in the school house door in the face of federal court rulings recognizing the 2A right. The litigation mounts up, the costs increase and it just becomes tiresome and bad politics. The politicians will do what they always do. We shall see. In the meantime SUPPORT THE MSI
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    If the stay is denied by both Judge Legg and CA4 and Maryland continues to hold applications, there could be some fireworks.

    If Legg clarifies his ruling to the extent that he formally orders Maryland to proceed without G&S and they continue to hold/deny if the stay is denied at both levels, there will be fireworks.

    Agreed. Having told the judge in the stay papers that they want a stay because the state would otherwise obey the court's declaratory judgment, the state would be hard pressed to justify holding the applications in the absence of a stay.
     

    MDresident

    Active Member
    Sep 22, 2010
    126
    Maryland can outright ban concealed carry and still be constitutional. I wouldn't put it past them as they stall for creating legislation and a permit process for open carry. :)

    Granted, I'm all for Maryland abiding by US Constituational law but I don't see them as welcoming it readily. And I do support MSI, SAF and others....:)
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Maryland can outright ban concealed carry and still be constitutional. I wouldn't put it past them as they stall for creating legislation and a permit process for open carry. :)

    Granted, I'm all for Maryland abiding by US Constituational law but I don't see them as welcoming it readily. And I do support MSI, SAF and others....:)

    Sure, MD will *never* be like Arizona or Wyoming or Vermont or Alaska, where carry is unrestricted or even like PA where it is not a big deal. It will take awhile to change the mindset. But once the door is cracked open and the sky doesn't fall, reason will have a chance to have an impact. Your support of MSI and the SAF is really important because these organizations serve to keep them honest.
     
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