Hickok 45 and the Tavor

SCARCQB said:

Here are some stuff on my Tavor wishlist.

Raised rail like the AUG A3 for better cheekweld with AR type optics and irons $75+

Heavier barrel $300+

Better trigger $200+

Mag release similar to an Ar or the x95 It is what it is...

Adjustable gas system that is vented onto the handguard area for easy
cleaning when suppressed.$100+

Slimmer contour of the stock , the Tavor is heavy compared to other MSRs It is what it is...

Steel safety selector $50+

Better rear Buis with dual aperture peeps, large hole for faster acquisition.$200+

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IMO, if the rifle was so innovative they would have gotten all of the above right when it was developed.

Add the above in RED to a 2K Base Rifle and your at $3k without Optics.

Unless one is a collector or is obsessed with Bullpups one can have a bad ass D.I. AR15, a Titanium Suppressor, and NICE Glass with all of the above "issues" worked out for 3K, and parts are available everywhere.

Im not one to shun innovative things, but I don't get the hype of the Tavor. You like yours so that's whats important.

rsj1231 said:

Very cool, thanks for the pics.

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I didnt clean it from the New Years Day range trip at Myrtle Grove. I ran 200 rounds down the pipe, other shooters ran maybe another five mags through it. I was expecting it to be dirtier.

Bradmac also shot it Lefty...... No brass marks on his face, he also was surprised that it wasnt too bad in terms of gas in your face from the ejection port. Considering that his nose was right behind the ejection port. another shooter commented that it was effin stupid to shoot airsoft guns or cal 177 in a real range. With ears on, it was really quiet with 223 rounds. It was a PFFFFTT!!!!!, followed by a faint THUG as the bullet hit the backstop at 110 yards. recoil was almost non existent with the heavy set up.

Will it replace my Trusty COLT6920? Hell no...... But its not a bad alternative.

( MD residents.... Your choices post SB281..... Tavor, HBAR, AR10, PS90,, some weird hybrid like the ARAK or similar. A Tavor with a longer compensator to make the29" mark isnt such a bad thing, prices are also dropping as production catches up with demand)

Looks like we got some Germans around here lol

clandestine said:

IMO, if the rifle was so innovative they would have gotten all of the above right when it was developed.

Add the above in RED to a 2K Base Rifle and your at $3k without Optics.

Unless one is a collector or is obsessed with Bullpups one can have a bad ass D.I. AR15, a Titanium Suppressor, and NICE Glass with all of the above "issues" worked out for 3K, and parts are available everywhere.

Im not one to shun innovative things, but I don't get the hype of the Tavor. You like yours so that's whats important.

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My AUGs handle better than the Tavors. In fact , In terms of bullpups, I would still pick up an AUG over a Tavor if SHTF.

My Go to Guns are
LE6920
Noinco Type 56 AKM underfolder
Steyr AUG, MSAR STG 556
FN PS90
TAvor
Benelli M4

For the Record , My Go to Rifle is My AK , And I HATE ARs

My Tavor has been 100% Reliable (So Far) and Extremely fun and Accurate, I do Run a Eotech 512 with G33 3x Magnifier so that has a lot to do with why I enjoy Plinking with her. I am well on my way to 2,000 rounds through her, Mostly wolf Steel and no real issues to report. Each Range day has been about 200-300 rounds and she went a Month strait with no cleaning (about 600 rounds ). She is a bit heavy, but once you shoulder the rifle weight is not noticeable because of the terrific balance.. I Just Really like 7.62x39mm, If it was not for that she would probably be my #1

SCARCQB said:

But since Maryland residents can only have a choice between a AR HBAR or a 29"+ Tavor and no new AKs...

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well, vz58s are still out there...

clandestine said:

IMO, if the rifle was so innovative they would have gotten all of the above right when it was developed.

Add the above in RED to a 2K Base Rifle and your at $3k without Optics.

Unless one is a collector or is obsessed with Bullpups one can have a bad ass D.I. AR15, a Titanium Suppressor, and NICE Glass with all of the above "issues" worked out for 3K, and parts are available everywhere.

Im not one to shun innovative things, but I don't get the hype of the Tavor. You like yours so that's whats important.

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I really think the point is being missed here. As a private citizen in an apocolyptic scenario I would choose the AR over the Tavor. The AR is a modular design for mission adaptation and is easily repaired. The availability of parts and accessories would be a huge advantage (either through scavenging or barter) in keeping the rifle in service well after the production has ceased.

As a Nation State arming a combat force I would choose the Tavor. It is already adapted to many situations that would require additional parts for the AR (shorter barrel for CQB etc.). Soldiers in the field are not worried about finding replacement parts, they just turn in the rifle and get a new one.

As for the laundry list of "wishes" those are all personal.

I'm not interested in a heavy barrel. That would only add weight. From an accuracy perspective the light barrel on a Tavor is easily equivalent to the sloppy M4s that the US military fields every day (as well as the Israelis).

Don't want the raised rail

Don't want the AR mag release

I'm fine with the profile and weight distribution (IMO it's better than an AR from a weight distribution standpoint).

BIUS- it is what it is. These rifles were designed to rely on modern optics systems, the BIUS are strictly backup to get you home. You can add any aftermarkets that you would like. I would like the rear sight to have some ability to adjust but really I could care less for BIUS anyway (some obviously feel different)

I would like an adjustable gas system (multiple reports of over gassing when suppressed). IWI has looked into this since the IDF has not had issues suppressing their field units.

Would like a better trigger too. The Tavor trigger is a battle trigger comparable to the crap that comes in a military issued M4. Most of us that are buying consumer grade firearms are paying more for better components or upgrading them out to one of our choosing. Personally I can't wait for Timney to release the Tavor trigger they are working on.

In short there is not wrong answer. What Clandestine and others are looking for in a rifle are not what has been delivered with the Tavor, fair enough, stick with what you like and know. Both of these weapon systems have their pros and cons, but neither one of them is "junk".

SCARCQB said:

Here are some stuff on my Tavor wishlist.

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I found this interesting, and wanted to comment.

Raised rail like the AUG A3 for better cheekweld with AR type optics and irons

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I didn't find this to be a problem at all with my Tavor. Hell, I didn't find it to be a problem on my A3, either.

Heavier barrel

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Why? Doesn't really make so much sense on a semi-auto rifle that's really hard to benchrest.

Better trigger

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Geissle and Timney have this covered. In fact, Timney is supposed to be showing one off at SHOT this year. Not looking forward to paying $350 for a new one, but I guess that's the price you pay to be special.

Mag release similar to an Ar or the x95

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Can't argue with that, albeit the paddle release works good for me.

Adjustable gas system that is vented onto the handguard area for easy cleaning when suppressed.

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This would be good. Surprised the Israelis didn't do a self-adjusting system.

Slimmer contour of the stock , the Tavor is heavy compared to other MSRs

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I feel like it's also sturdier as a result.

Steel safety selector

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Steel/aluminum AMBI selector. Whatever possessed them to go with the current design, I don't know.

Better rear Buis with dual aperture peeps, large hole for faster acquisition.

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The Tavor really isn't designed to be run with irons... I think they made the right call with the current BUIS. They're light-weight, fold up and down easily, and have a tritium post. I wish my AUG had them.

Also, let me add one: SCAR entry tri-rail handguard would be good for making it into a genuine clone of what IWI submitted for that competition. I don't think it should be standard, but it would be a good after-market part.

After buying an AUG A3, I will actually agree with Chad in that the Tavor is not revolutionary. The AUG A3 NATO and the Tavor are about equal in my eyes - the Tavor has better ergos, but you can make the AUG's trigger way, way better. I think the Tavor will be the better of the two once the Geissle trigger is out, albeit it'll be ~$500 more expensive than an AUG A3.

That said, I think he's a little hard on it in terms of the spare and aftermarket parts situation - this isn't an AUG with like 20 years of spare parts behind it. Give it 5 years, and I think the parts situation will be much improved. As it is, IWI US seems to be on the ball with supporting the rifles out there.

Heavy barrel on a Tavor doesn't make sense? I guess you guys don't do mag dumps.

rsj1231 said:

What suppressor are you running? I plan to use my Surefire Socom whenever my stamp clears. Do the inner plastic parts gets excessively dirty and is it easy to take apart for cleaning?

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janklow said:

well, vz58s are still out there...

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But it's not in 5.56.
The AR is better suited for urban HD because the 5.56 limits over penetration. The 7.62x39 Will go through walls like a hot knife through butter.

SCARCQB said:

But it's not in 5.56.
The AR is better suited for urban HD because the 5.56 limits over penetration. The 7.62x39 Will go through walls like a hot knife through butter.

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Just as a note, they do make Vz58s in 5.56.

The reviews I've seen are rather hit-or-miss, but they do exist. Czechpoint carries them from time to time.

SCARCQB said:

Heavy barrel on a Tavor doesn't make sense? I guess you guys don't do mag dumps.

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But how often am I doing mag dumps in my semi-auto Tavor? Again, if it were full-auto, I'd buy in, but it's not a super pleasant experience with the stock trigger.

Whats with mags dumps?
I don't waste ammo on suchs things. Accurately engaging targets with reasonable semi auto follow up shots I can see but to just dispense ammo for the cause of doing it...ummm no.

WheelHead said:

Whats with mags dumps?
I don't waste ammo on suchs things. Accurately engaging targets with reasonable semi auto follow up shots I can see but to just dispense ammo for the cause of doing it...ummm no.

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I do not do mag dumps but I will do spirited shooting. If you know your rifle well enough it may seem like a mag dump but it is actually fast follow up shots.

jrumann59 said:

I do not do mag dumps but I will do spirited shooting. If you know your rifle well enough it may seem like a mag dump but it is actually fast follow up shots.

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I like to think of it as 15 very rapid controlled pairs.

The Tavor has a place and a role, it isn't suited to do everything. However it can fill roles that some other platforms don't fill easily. Just as there's roles the Tavor wasn't intended to fill.

It'll be interesting to see how it evolves as time passes, IMO.

Let's remember, the AR-15/M-16 wasn't exactly beloved when it was issued originally, but look at it now.

WheelHead said:

I know several guys that purchased them when they became available and where having me try to help sell them shortly after. Its not that it didn't function or wasn't a quality product it was just more of a ..."why did I buy this expensive proprietary rifle?" I'd pick up one of my Colt M4s long before I'd select the Tavor is a moment of need. Has anyone tired one of these at medium distance of lets say 200-300 yards on steel?

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I agree with you, I'd take my Colt M4 everywhere if I could... It's a proven piece as we all know. I wonder if opinions would change if this 2000 dollar (approximate) rifle was only 800-1000 dollars. I haven't shot one, only held a few and it does take a little getting used to.... But that's only because I'm accustomed to the AR platform. Seeing how polymer type weapons are becoming more mainstream, specifically speaking about this current rifle, I'd be curious to know what people would say if this Tavor was made by Glock.... Just a thought.

erwos said:

But how often am I doing mag dumps in my semi-auto Tavor? Again, if it were full-auto, I'd buy in, but it's not a super pleasant experience with the stock trigger.

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The Tar21 is exported around the world in selective fire versions. They are popular in south America, India and the philippines, etc...those that use it in counter ambush/ vehicle/ convoy protection do use magdumps as a tactic to suppress incoming fire. A heavier barrel tends to work better in this application.

For us American civilian consumers.....magdumps or rapid shooting is mocked. Only because access to automatic weapons is so regulated.then, Add the high cost of ammo...

But in places that do allow such things, a heavy barrel version would really sell well.

Get a mind of your own, and do some real research don't just run with whatever someone tells you! Just my opinion.....

Mine runs great and everyone I have ever seen or been around ran fine too. Bullpups are not for everyone, it just might not be for you!


IMG_4401 by 556 Channel (HD), on Flickr


IMG_2877 by 556 Channel (HD), on Flickr

I have several bullpups in my collection:

AUG, USR
MSAR STG556
Valmet M82
Norinco 86 S
FN FS2000
FN PS90
Tavor 16 and 18"

I also own the following overseas( yes, i do own a home outside of the US)
VHS-C
Norinco type97
M14 bullpup- ex Israeli Sniper
CR-21- Vector
SKI / SAR21
FAMAS

Out of all of these, the Tavor and AUG are my top picks in a bullpup. The Tavor also evolved into the X95. The design continues to improve as engineers work on flaws. I have shot the X95 last year, it is more user friendly than the Tavor. it is also lighter. I guess, what I really want is an x95

Competition is always good for the consumer.

SCARCQB said:

Competition is always good for the consumer.

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This, helps everyone (manufactures) get out of that box and keep those creative juices flowing!!