Ultimate Home Defense load: Fed LE132-1B

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  • Aug 2, 2007
    1,253
    Harford County
    That's not the load for me. I don't use a HD shotgun, but if I did I would want that pattern to open as quickly as possible in that sub 5 yard shot. The flight control wad doesn't allow for that. It's my guess that the FC wad is used simply because of it's thicker walls allowing for a better fit of the shot. It essentually turns the 12ga hull into a 16ga hull (in the shot column area), as 1B is the optimal buckshot size for a 16, while 00 works best in a 12. That said, this 1B load probably has some ideal applications found in longer shots (Sika Deer, Coyotes, Fox).

    I am failing to understand the idea behind seeking a wider spread with a shotgun in terms of self defense... For shooting birds or clays I can understand wanting to be able to increase spread to increase the chance of a hit as the target is very small and moving quickly, but that's a totally different situation.

    In terms of self defense the ability to take well-aimed shots is always important. Increasing spread merely decreases the ability to fire well-aimed shots. One it decreases the chances of hitting a vital structure (namely the heart and spine) and two it increases the likelihood of having "fliers" that miss the intended target altogether.

    This is a shot of Winchester Ranger 2 3/4" 9 pellete 00 buck at 15 yards:

    buckshot-3.jpg


    Now mind you a 15 yard shot is definitely a long shot for inside the home, but of the nine pellets five of them are off to the sides of the target. Those might strike something like the lungs, but might not produce an immediate fight-ending wound.

    Now, same 15 yard distance with a generic S&B 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buck load:

    buckshot-15.jpg


    Even further spread with even less hits in the vital area.


    15 yards with Federal Magnum 2 3/4" 30 pellet #4 buck load:

    buckshot-19.jpg


    Lots of hits all over the target with about nine pellets around the vital area, but most of the pellets hit well outside of the vital area and two of them missed the target entirely (still very dangerous and going somewhere they weren't intended.)


    I understand that the FliteControl seems like it's actually too tight of a pattern, but the other important thing to consider is that once the shot hits a mass it will spread within the target like so:

    n1s7iu.jpg


    What starts out as a very small entrance wound expands as each individual pellet takes its own path. So a hit close to the vital area can still produce a mortal wound as each pellet acts as an individual projectile within the target.
     
    Aug 2, 2007
    1,253
    Harford County
    You can really see the effects of each pellet acting as a separate projectile here:



    In most of the tests (excluding the birdshot which... well is a terrible choice for self defense) you can see the cloud of shot striking the gelatine block at pretty much the same time in a pretty tight cluster. Once the pellets enter the block, however, they separate from each other and cause individual wounding channels.
     

    Darkemp

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 18, 2009
    7,811
    Marylandistan
    How many #1 pellets are there in the 3" loads? I'm with several others here and currently stock 3" 00 buck shells due to the increased quantity.
     

    blackthorne

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 31, 2010
    1,499
    Naptown
    I am failing to understand the idea behind seeking a wider spread with a shotgun in terms of self defense... For shooting birds or clays I can understand wanting to be able to increase spread to increase the chance of a hit as the target is very small and moving quickly, but that's a totally different situation.

    In terms of self defense the ability to take well-aimed shots is always important. Increasing spread merely decreases the ability to fire well-aimed shots. One it decreases the chances of hitting a vital structure (namely the heart and spine) and two it increases the likelihood of having "fliers" that miss the intended target altogether.

    This is a shot of Winchester Ranger 2 3/4" 9 pellete 00 buck at 15 yards:

    buckshot-3.jpg




    Now mind you a 15 yard shot is definitely a long shot for inside the home, but of the nine pellets five of them are off to the sides of the target. Those might strike something like the lungs, but might not produce an immediate fight-ending wound.

    Now, same 15 yard distance with a generic S&B 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buck load:

    buckshot-15.jpg


    Even further spread with even less hits in the vital area.


    15 yards with Federal Magnum 2 3/4" 30 pellet #4 buck load:

    buckshot-19.jpg


    Lots of hits all over the target with about nine pellets around the vital area, but most of the pellets hit well outside of the vital area and two of them missed the target entirely (still very dangerous and going somewhere they weren't intended.)


    I understand that the FliteControl seems like it's actually too tight of a pattern, but the other important thing to consider is that once the shot hits a mass it will spread within the target like so:

    n1s7iu.jpg


    What starts out as a very small entrance wound expands as each individual pellet takes its own path. So a hit close to the vital area can still produce a mortal wound as each pellet acts as an individual projectile within the target.

    Nate,

    My guess would be that you would probably never have the opportunity of a well aimed shot in a HD situation. Think about it: stressed out beyond normal(read - scared shitless), most have never shot anyone or shot at anyone, everything happens fast and probably only ten feet away. Murphy's law is more than likely in full application. So at ten feet, I would rather not have a 4 inch pattern. It's simply too easy to miss. I would rather have a "minute of man" pattern. Off by a little (which you will be) and you still have some chance of hitting what you're shooting at. I would not dwell on mortal wound channels, ballistic gel, fancy wads and all the other stuff. I would rather keep it real simple and throw big enough pellets that carry enough energy where a couple of hits to the torso will knock a guy down. This is not only my idea behind a larger pattern, but I was in that situation and a tight pattern would have missed, whereas the larger pattern did not.
     
    Aug 2, 2007
    1,253
    Harford County
    Nate,

    My guess would be that you would probably never have the opportunity of a well aimed shot in a HD situation. Think about it: stressed out beyond normal(read - scared shitless), most have never shot anyone or shot at anyone, everything happens fast and probably only ten feet away. Murphy's law is more than likely in full application. So at ten feet, I would rather not have a 4 inch pattern. It's simply too easy to miss. I would rather have a "minute of man" pattern. Off by a little (which you will be) and you still have some chance of hitting what you're shooting at. I would not dwell on mortal wound channels, ballistic gel, fancy wads and all the other stuff. I would rather keep it real simple and throw big enough pellets that carry enough energy where a couple of hits to the torso will knock a guy down. This is not only my idea behind a larger pattern, but I was in that situation and a tight pattern would have missed, whereas the larger pattern did not.

    As it so happens no I have not had the occasion to fire at an adversary with a shotgun. I have been shot at more than once and I do understand the mechanics of that "oh shit" adrenaline dump. Without a doubt, as you said, you will be off a little and down to pure muscle memory. There is no way you won't, especially if you've never truly experienced such a situation before.

    But that's why I have always stressed training. Train, train, train, and when you think you're really really good train more. Rifles and pistols fire a single projectile and yet we are expected to be able to engage a target with hits in a self-defense scenario. IMHO the shotgun should be no different.

    I'm sure we could go round and round with point-counterpoint and both still feel we are correct in our way of thinking.
     

    blackthorne

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Aug 31, 2010
    1,499
    Naptown
    As it so happens no I have not had the occasion to fire at an adversary with a shotgun. I have been shot at more than once and I do understand the mechanics of that "oh shit" adrenaline dump. Without a doubt, as you said, you will be off a little and down to pure muscle memory. There is no way you won't, especially if you've never truly experienced such a situation before.

    But that's why I have always stressed training. Train, train, train, and when you think you're really really good train more. Rifles and pistols fire a single projectile and yet we are expected to be able to engage a target with hits in a self-defense scenario. IMHO the shotgun should be no different.

    I'm sure we could go round and round with point-counterpoint and both still feel we are correct in our way of thinking.

    This is true. Stay safe and keep up the training. Let's hope we don't have to put our theories to the test.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,824
    Bel Air
    When they pattern a HD round, a target from 15 yards is not very useful. I would prefer to see what it can do at 3-10 feet. That makes more sense.
     

    platoonDaddy

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 30, 2011
    4,146
    SouthOfBalto
    It is my understanding that they will be available following shotshow 2013.


    Cut from a posting by DocGKR:
    A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches.

    Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma."

    We did some additional testing with the new Federal LE132-1B #1 buckshot load. The load chronographed with a MV of 1095 fps from an 18" 870.

    Through an automobile windshield at 3 meters, 2 badly deformed pellets were noted at 5", 3 pellets were at 8-9", while the remaining 10 pellets were found at 12.5-15"--not bad for buckshot load. Keep in mind that slugs are the preferred option when engaging threats inside vehicles.

    In bare gel when shot from 3 meters, we again saw penetration of all the pellets from 14-18"
     

    Goose Guy

    Skooma lord
    Mar 29, 2010
    2,807
    People's Respublik of Maryland
    Just for shits and grins, I decided to test some loads out about a year ago. Gun was a benelli Nova 12 ga. with a 28" barrel and IC choke. Distance was 15 yds:

    1) 12 ga., 3" 00BK, 16 pellets. 15 on paper, but not so good pattern.

    2) 12 ga., 3 1/2" Winchester Xpert loaded with 4 .454 round balls.

    3) Same as 2, except it had some BB steel shot dumped back in.


    So while they were impressive in theory, they patterned badly and hit at random.
     

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    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,359
    I remember seeing this thread, so we patterned two different brands of 12 gauge 00 Buck with two different shotguns, and two different distances of 25 yards and 10 yards. Approximately between 35-40 degrees Fahrenheit and <5MPH wind. 870 with 18.5" Fixed Cylinder Bore, and a Silver Eagle Tactical with 20" Fixed Cylinder Bore.


    Rio Royal Buck 9 Pellet 00, and Remington Express LE 9 Pellet 00.

    ammo_zps1a384776.jpg




    RIO/870/25 yards
    870Rio25Y_zpse076a927.jpg



    RIO/870/10 Yards
    870Rio10Y_zpsb68561af.jpg



    RIO/SE Tac/25 yards
    SETacRio25Y_zpsa88fbfee.jpg


    Missing RIO/SE Tac/10 Yards

    Remington/870/25 yards
    870Remington25Y_zpsa1d4df45.jpg



    Remington/870/10 yards
    870Remington10Y_zps66201fd2.jpg



    Remington/SE Tac/25 yards
    SETacRemington25Y_zps382dbf5d.jpg


    Remington/SE Tac/10 yards
    SETacRem10Y_zpse42af1d1.jpg
     

    rizeld

    Member
    Jan 11, 2013
    38
    Frederick
    Thanks for taking the time to do so much work and be as detailed as possible. These look like great results. Who'd did you shoot with.

    Was that a squirrel?!!!
     

    photoracer

    Competition Shooter
    Oct 22, 2010
    3,318
    West Virginia
    With the short ranges indoors I have always believed in 3" magnum #4. Having 1/2 the penetration (7-9") of most of the larger sizes its not likely to penetrate walls, and I love being able to send 41 pellets down range. Anything longer and I generally load PDX rounds.
     

    PapiBarcelona

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2011
    7,359
    Thanks for taking the time to do so much work and be as detailed as possible. These look like great results. Who'd did you shoot with.

    Was that a squirrel?!!!

    Thanks, 25 yards isn't ideal buckshot defensive range but it surely shows the differences in shotshell components of the two different brands.
     

    Pilot7576

    Member
    Aug 13, 2009
    67
    Folks...

    Newby question here...just won a mossberg 500 20ga from GB. Purpose will be HD. I'm a pistol guy for the most part and wondering what would be the best HD load in terms of shotsize and also if there is an appreciable difference between the 2.75" and 3" shells.

    Any help or guidance is appreciated as this is all new to me...

    TIA

    Pilot7576
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,496
    I couldn't find the federal loads, but picked up some of these to put up my 870's tube for the apt...
    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/29...uge-3-buffered-1-buckshot-24-pellets-box-of-5

    boom.JPG
    I still need to get out to the range to pattern them....but 9 shells of 3" #1buck with 24 .30 cal balls in each shell seems to be the ticket to lay a world of hurt on any potential threat. If a threat doesn't go down with 216 .30 cal holes in them...I got bigger problems than can be solved with another caliber.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,240
    Outside the Gates
    9 shells of 3" #1buck with 24 .30 cal balls in each shell seems to be the ticket to lay a world of hurt on any potential threat. If a threat doesn't go down with 216 .30 cal holes in them...I got bigger problems than can be solved with another caliber.

    My Vietnam vet friends say Charlie would charge the middle of a line of M-16's to avoid the guy with the Browning on the end of the line; everyone wanted to carry the Browning. 'nuff said.
     

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