"Armor Piercing Bullets" re: PS90

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  • knownalien

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2010
    1,793
    Glen Burnie, MD.
    I am thinking about getting the FN PS90. My understanding was that "armor piercing" bullets were illegal for civillian purchase. On a few places on the internet, some claim otherwise. I was just curious among the fellas here what you understood to be the law. Also, while you're at it, what are your thoughts on the PS90??

    Here's where I reading now: http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/page/FNH+PS90+Review+and+Operation

    p.s. See you guys at the empty holster rally next sat!!! (with my girls . . some time after 2:00)
     

    X-Factor

    I don't say please
    Jun 2, 2009
    5,244
    Calvert County
    "armor piercing" rounds in the 5.7 USED to be able to be purchased by the public, but the manufacturer has since pulled it from public shelves. Whether or not you can legally own it is another question to which I don't have an answer....but IF you can find the alleged "armor piercing" rounds for that caliber on the used market you will pay dearly for them.
     

    mikec

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 1, 2007
    11,453
    Off I-83
    30-06 AP is not illegal. 5.56x45 AP is, because someone made a handgun in that caliber. The ammo FN pulled was not true AP, however it would defeat a vest. FN did restrict the sales like the guy mentioned, for PR reasons. For example, most .30-30 ammo will defeat a vest. Of course, since you don't see "assault style" carbines in that caliber, no one really cares.

    From what I have read, you pull the AP bullets from 30-06 rounds and load them into .308 cases, but a FFL can't sell .308 AP. The law is about as clear as a chocolate milkshake.

    Also, what is armor piercing varies. A writer for Guns & Ammo wrote about how he found out that a particular Smith & Wesson .357 loading, yes S&W did make and sell ammo for a period, would defeat a certain level of vest. The guy did not put the info into print until after S&W stopped making the ammo and it was off the shelves. What the writer said was that the jacket didn't allow the bullet to mushroom. It just drilled into the vest.
     

    X-Factor

    I don't say please
    Jun 2, 2009
    5,244
    Calvert County
    30-06 AP is not illegal. 5.56x45 AP is, because someone made a handgun in that caliber. The ammo FN pulled was not true AP, however it would defeat a vest. FN did restrict the sales like the guy mentioned, for PR reasons. For example, most .30-30 ammo will defeat a vest. Of course, since you don't see "assault style" carbines in that caliber, no one really cares.

    From what I have read, you pull the AP bullets from 30-06 rounds and load them into .308 cases, but a FFL can't sell .308 AP. The law is about as clear as a chocolate milkshake.

    Also, what is armor piercing varies. A writer for Guns & Ammo wrote about how he found out that a particular Smith & Wesson .357 loading, yes S&W did make and sell ammo for a period, would defeat a certain level of vest. The guy did not put the info into print until after S&W stopped making the ammo and it was off the shelves. What the writer said was that the jacket didn't allow the bullet to mushroom. It just drilled into the vest.

    Good info and you danced around a good thought provoker. What IS armor piercing? I think it's about as misunderstood as "bullet proof".... There will always be a round that can defeat something.....No vest I know of can stop a .50 round from a Barrett rifle (for example), so is that vest truly "bullet proof" and is that round by default considered "armor piercing" even in standard ball configuration? Is the AP .50 round truly "armor piercing" even if it can't pierce a modern tank hull? The truth is you need to consider what the use is of the vest or armor or round.
     

    knownalien

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2010
    1,793
    Glen Burnie, MD.
    30-06 AP is not illegal. 5.56x45 AP is, because someone made a handgun in that caliber. The ammo FN pulled was not true AP, however it would defeat a vest. FN did restrict the sales like the guy mentioned, for PR reasons. For example, most .30-30 ammo will defeat a vest. Of course, since you don't see "assault style" carbines in that caliber, no one really cares.

    there is a handgun in this caliber called the Five'N Seven. It's a sweet pistol.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Good info and you danced around a good thought provoker. What IS armor piercing? I think it's about as misunderstood as "bullet proof".... There will always be a round that can defeat something.....No vest I know of can stop a .50 round from a Barrett rifle (for example), so is that vest truly "bullet proof" and is that round by default considered "armor piercing" even in standard ball configuration? Is the AP .50 round truly "armor piercing" even if it can't pierce a modern tank hull? The truth is you need to consider what the use is of the vest or armor or round.

    Simple answer to what is "Armor Piercing", whatever BATFE says is "Armor Piercing" ;)

    I know there is a criteria they use but I cant recall where I found it.
     

    BenL

    John Galt Speaking.
    there is a handgun in this caliber called the Five'N Seven. It's a sweet pistol.

    No, I think he means
    kel_plr.jpg
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Civies can buy AP ammo in 5.7. Elite Ammunition makes AP 5.7 rounds.

    They use 5.56 SS109 type bullets and load them into 5.7 cases with a hot powder charge.

    It is legal to own and shoot this ammo through a 5.7 AR Upper, FN P90, or FNPS90, but I HIGHLY CAUTION people who own a FN FiveseveN pistol to refrain from purchasing it. It can be construed by BATFE that possessing a 5.7 pistol and A.P. ammo that you are in violation of the law.

    Its unlikely that anyone will ever know or has ever been charged for such an offense but I dont want to be the 1st.
     

    mikec

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 1, 2007
    11,453
    Off I-83
    X-Factor, one of the "problems" is that there are two standards for "armor piercing" ammo. The US military has their definition and then ATF has their own for sporting arms.
     

    boricuamaximus

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 27, 2008
    6,237
    The BATFE does not consider the SS190's (orginal 5.7 rounds) AP. However, thanks to the Brady bunch video that show those bullets going through level II armor. They began their bwaaaah fest, evil pistol garbage. So they (FN) restricted the sale of that ammo to us regular types. They made the SS192/SS195 series so they quit complaining.

    The only one that I know that the BATFE considers AP are the black tipped FiveSeven rounds. Those that are made specially for that. The SS190's -can- defeat level II armor but so can one of the supersonic assault bumbles bees with the stingers that go up.
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    Ammo is covered by others here. Summary: AP is defined by the BATFE and is illegal for pistol. That is a federal law. Don't break it.

    As for the rifle: the PS90 is a great little gun. I have a lot of fun with it and sent in a Form 1 for SBR that should have come back by now, based on previous submissions. So it'll be an SBR "soon". A 50 round mag makes for some fun shooting. It fires flat and clean, little recoil and tolerable noise. The flashider works. It has become on of my favorite guns to shoot.

    Some things you might like to know:

    - No bolt hold-open. At all (even manually). So when the last round fires the only sign you get that you are out is a "click". This is not an issue unless you want to be real tacti-cool and worry about taking out zombies.

    - Disassembles in about 10 seconds. Fast, easy, clean. Reassembles the same.

    - Lousy sights in the factory config. I went with the "USG" version because it has a better sight picture, but it is still small with little eye relief. I may swap this out for a tri-rail with an Aimpoint T1. But it is accurate. It just takes practice to get a fast picture from it (again not an issue with us casual shooters).

    - Ammo runs about $.40/round. You can reload it cheaper from what I am told, but I don't have the time.
     

    knownalien

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2010
    1,793
    Glen Burnie, MD.
    Yes, I'm aware of what a Five-seveN is. :sad20:

    I was responding to the existence of a 5.56mm pistol. When you describe a 5.56mm pistol, most people don't immediately think of the 5.7...

    well, I never mentioned "5.56mm." and you were clearly referring to me. So . . . . . I still don't get why you brought it up nor why my "clarification" post would deserve this: :sad20:

    ???
     

    Markp

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 22, 2008
    9,392
    The original "Armor Piercing" round... :) Tokarev... Defeats level II body armor for only $0.07 a round.
     

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    mikec

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 1, 2007
    11,453
    Off I-83
    Mark, very true. I also remember reading something about how some US troops carried S&W .357 Magnum revolvers during the Korean conflict because some magnum FMJ load back then defeated the Chinese armor.

    Dad said he never saw that but he was busy keeping his backside from getting shot off.
     

    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    well, I never mentioned "5.56mm." and you were clearly referring to me. So . . . . . I still don't get why you brought it up nor why my "clarification" post would deserve this: :sad20:

    ???

    MikeC was adding to the conversation by pointing out an obvious issue: some 5.7x28 was pulled because it also came in a pistol caliber, while 5.56 is still fine even though pistol forms exist for it. The 5.7 was subjected to much naval gazing and bad publicity by the likes of Brady ("Cop Killer Bullets OMG!!!"). It was pulled with little/no technical analysis. Mike made a good point. And Ben knows guns...he was trying to help you.

    Welcome to the forum and enjoy the PS90. If you choose to stay, understand that people add little tidbits of knowledge and sometimes it doesn't strictly keep to the original post (OP)...it may veer a little (or even a lot). It's the way it works. The original poster (you) has about as much control over the thread as I have over the wind.

    So sit back and enjoy the ride. ;)
     
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    Patrick

    MSI Executive Member
    Apr 26, 2009
    7,725
    Calvert County
    I stalked a groundhog with my PS90 today. Got a good bead on him from about 40 yards, but he had veered into the flat part of my land and a road is beyond the treeline. I wouldn't take the shot.

    Tomorrow is another day.

    This is perfect work for a PS90, if you ask me.
     

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