Very odd visit from the ATF.

The innocence project has freed 301 wrongfully convicted people. Some of these people ended up behind bars because they didn't invoke their right to counsel or remain silent when they should have.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be willing to help the police, but don't tell me folks who are cautious are crazy to be cautious. There's clearly at least 301 people now free who should have been more cautious.

strapped said:

With all due respect, law enforcement in movies is much different than in real life. Many LEO's (myself included) do not leave business cards due to impersonation. The TFO in this case introduced himself, showed 2 sets of credentials, so a paper business card is pretty irrelevant. The ATF (with the aide of task force officers) investigates many crimes which involve a firearm especially ones involving an FFL or gun shop. And finally, other law enforcement agencies are not notified when another agency is going to knock and talk. A lot of tin foil hat wearing people in this thread!

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I guess I'm the lucky one and have only come in contact with TV police because any LEO I had a reason to talk to always either gave me their business card or just wrote down their contact info on a piece of paper.

Now this investigation was/is important enough for this LEO to go to the homes of members of the range to ask questions because of a missing firearm, but it's not important enough to leave contact info just in case any of the people that were interviewed may remember something that would be helpful in the investigation?

Now I'm not a LEO, but when you're conducting an investigation isn't it a good idea to leave your information just in case someone thinks of anything that may be helpful, or maybe sees the light and wants to confess? Or is it a standard practice not to leave any contact information during a investigation that even all of the organization you show credentials for do not even know anything about the investigation your conducting, like seems to be the case here?

In the discussion of pointless laws, like requiring seatbelts, several police who responded mentioned that the main utility of these laws, in their estimation, was to provide a pretext to pull citizens over and look around their vehicles for evidence of other crimes, such as smuggling untaxed cigarettes. So I think it is stellar advice to never allow a policeman in your home. Shutting the door on one is common sense.

As far as not talking to a policeman, last I checked it was a Constitutional right. I've not the slightest use for people who run around telling me I shouldn't exercise my Second Amendment right, claiming they see no need for me to own a firearm, and providing all sorts of justifications, especially the "safety of the community", to sustain their assertions. So why, exactly, should anyone here, of all places, be expected to take seriously people telling us not to exercise any other civil right? Especially when it is police that tell us that?

Oh, that's right, it's because some day, we "might need a policeman". I've got a fair number of years on me now, and I can honestly say I've never once needed a cop. No doubt many of them are nice lads and lasses, don't get me wrong, but aside from giving me tickets for "speeding" and not wearing a seatbelt, I really don't interact with them in any way, shape or form.

Which makes it all the more amusing to constantly hear that old refrain, about "Someday you'll need a cop". Now, a machinist, a UPS driver, a clerk at NAPA, Dillon customer support; those are occupations that have been damn useful to me. But I just can't imagine them ever telling me once that "Someday you'll need me", let alone telling me that over and over and over. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Merlin said:

I guess I'm the lucky one and have only come in contact with TV police because any LEO I had a reason to talk to always either gave me their business card or just wrote down their contact info on a piece of paper.
....

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Ditto ... every contact I've had recently ended with the officer's card & cell phone number.

Kinbote said:

In the discussion of pointless laws, like requiring seatbelts, several police who responded mentioned that the main utility of these laws, in their estimation, was to provide a pretext to pull citizens over and look around their vehicles for evidence of other crimes, such as smuggling untaxed cigarettes. So I think it is stellar advice to never allow a policeman in your home. Shutting the door on one is common sense.

As far as not talking to a policeman, last I checked it was a Constitutional right. I've not the slightest use for people who run around telling me I shouldn't exercise my Second Amendment right, claiming they see no need for me to own a firearm, and providing all sorts of justifications, especially the "safety of the community", to sustain their assertions. So why, exactly, should anyone here, of all places, be expected to take seriously people telling us not to exercise any other civil right? Especially when it is police that tell us that?

Oh, that's right, it's because some day, we "might need a policeman". I've got a fair number of years on me now, and I can honestly say I've never once needed a cop. No doubt many of them are nice lads and lasses, don't get me wrong, but aside from giving me tickets for "speeding" and not wearing a seatbelt, I really don't interact with them in any way, shape or form.

Which makes it all the more amusing to constantly hear that old refrain, about "Someday you'll need a cop". Now, a machinist, a UPS driver, a clerk at NAPA, Dillon customer support; those are occupations that have been damn useful to me. But I just can't imagine them ever telling me once that "Someday you'll need me", let alone telling me that over and over and over. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

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Why is it that we think alike? Although the Dillon CS is by far the best one next to my bestest buddy the UPS driver...

Even I must admit, that is the difference between the ideal and the real world. In the real world if you don't make nice with a person or group it will be remembered during susequent dealings regardless of right or wrong.

I've weighed the risks and its just my personal preference but I'll take my chances with my views.

Mark75H said:

Ditto ... every contact I've had recently ended with the officer's card & cell phone number.

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Maybe they just liked the swagger in your hips?

gmhowell said:

Maybe they just liked the swagger in your hips?

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and now

Mark75H said:

Ditto ... every contact I've had recently ended with the officer's card & cell phone number.

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And I bet for things not anywhere as serious as missing AR's.

So... for you LEO's out there:

There appears to be reasonable suspicion of impresonators. What is the best and most sure way for the OP to validate your identity when you show up unsolicited at his home?

Clearly business cards aren't credible forms of identification. Badges are probably closer but still faked. Marked cars would help as noted above. What other resources are at his disposal?

beafly.cakes said:

So... for you LEO's out there:

There appears to be reasonable suspicion of impresonators. What is the best and most sure way for the OP to validate your identity when you show up unsolicited at his home?

Clearly business cards aren't credible forms of identification. Badges are probably closer but still faked. Marked cars would help as noted above. What other resources are at his disposal?

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Badge AND ID card. If you really have your doubts then ask for a uniformed officer.

vector03 said:

The innocence project has freed 301 wrongfully convicted people. Some of these people ended up behind bars because they didn't invoke their right to counsel or remain silent when they should have.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be willing to help the police, but don't tell me folks who are cautious are crazy to be cautious. There's clearly at least 301 people now free who should have been more cautious.

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There is a HUGE difference here.

If the police take you in, you absolutely should assert your right to a lawyer and to shut up.

If the police knock on your door and say they've had a spike in crime reports in your neighborhood, have you seen anything? You should not slam the door and tell them to get a warrant.

Kinbote said:

In the discussion of pointless laws, like requiring seatbelts, several police who responded mentioned that the main utility of these laws, in their estimation, was to provide a pretext to pull citizens over and look around their vehicles for evidence of other crimes, such as smuggling untaxed cigarettes. So I think it is stellar advice to never allow a policeman in your home. Shutting the door on one is common sense.


As far as not talking to a policeman, last I checked it was a Constitutional right. I've not the slightest use for people who run around telling me I shouldn't exercise my Second Amendment right, claiming they see no need for me to own a firearm, and providing all sorts of justifications, especially the "safety of the community", to sustain their assertions. So why, exactly, should anyone here, of all places, be expected to take seriously people telling us not to exercise any other civil right? Especially when it is police that tell us that?

Oh, that's right, it's because some day, we "might need a policeman". I've got a fair number of years on me now, and I can honestly say I've never once needed a cop. No doubt many of them are nice lads and lasses, don't get me wrong, but aside from giving me tickets for "speeding" and not wearing a seatbelt, I really don't interact with them in any way, shape or form.

Which makes it all the more amusing to constantly hear that old refrain, about "Someday you'll need a cop". Now, a machinist, a UPS driver, a clerk at NAPA, Dillon customer support; those are occupations that have been damn useful to me. But I just can't imagine them ever telling me once that "Someday you'll need me", let alone telling me that over and over and over. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

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Not aimed specifically at kinbote, just using his comment as an example. No offense meant kinbote.
So from what some of you are saying, I should'nt have talked to the Mont. Co. drug and firearm task force the other night when they were trying to find someone's rifles that had been stolen from their home. Interesting, I will now NOT cooperate with them in ANY way and then you, if your on this board and were the victim, won't be offended.

When I was told someones guns were stolen my first thought was "I wonder if it was an MDS member? and I hope I can help". BTW, ALL the officers at my house gave me their cards and were very nice guys. They never asked to come in the house though. Their interest was another location. I have nothing to hide anyway and have a VERY GOOD lawyer.

gprimr1 said:

There is a HUGE difference here.

If the police take you in, you absolutely should assert your right to a lawyer and to shut up.

If the police knock on your door and say they've had a spike in crime reports in your neighborhood, have you seen anything? You should not slam the door and tell them to get a warrant.

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Agreed. Only thing i want to know is, why is a cop telling me this instead of hearing it from a neighbor.

gprimr1 said:

There is a HUGE difference here.

If the police take you in, you absolutely should assert your right to a lawyer and to shut up.

If the police knock on your door and say they've had a spike in crime reports in your neighborhood, have you seen anything? You should not slam the door and tell them to get a warrant.

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I wholeheartedly agree.

gprimr1 said:

There is a HUGE difference here.

If the police take you in, you absolutely should assert your right to a lawyer and to shut up.

If the police knock on your door and say they've had a spike in crime reports in your neighborhood, have you seen anything? You should not slam the door and tell them to get a warrant.

Click to expand...

In that case one would be better off not even answering the door. Like I said before, if I had seen anything I'd have called you (the police). ANY other contact is unwelcome solicitation or worse as far as I'm concerned.

Samuel said:

In that case one would be better off not even answering the door. Like I said before, if I had seen anything I'd have called you (the police). ANY other contact is unwelcome solicitation or worse as far as I'm concerned.

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Get real....how do you know what you saw is suspicious? Maybe you blow it off and dont consider it odd like a van in a driveway or a car parked on the street. Now that you know a crime occured by talking to the police you can make that association...Oh I'm guessing your all knowing and would know a strange car on the street is up to no good and not just visiting a neighbor?

How do you live being this paranoid? Do you also wake your family up at 2 am on random days to "test your awareness" like another member here.

People...jeeezzz.

Samuel said:

In that case one would be better off not even answering the door. Like I said before, if I had seen anything I'd have called you (the police). ANY other contact is unwelcome solicitation or worse as far as I'm concerned.

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You just don't get it boss. How do you know if you saw something or not if the police don't get the chance to ask. You may have seen something important and didn't think anything of it because you didn't know there was a crime in progress. Sounds like either you've got a big tinfoil hat on or you've got something to hide.

I'm coming into this thread late. And I didn't read every single reply. So forgive me if this has already been brought up...


I took a friend of mind to the range with me. A few weeks later, a Baltimore County Detective came to his house and asked for him by name. He said that a handgun had been stolen from the range while he (and I) were there. And asked the normal "Did you see anything suspicious?" type questions.

He told him he was definitely not a suspect in the case. But was just trying to talk to everybody who was there. Then he thanked my friend for his time, and left.

I thought it odd that I never got a visit, or even a phone call. But I just figured it probably had to do with me being a member and him just being a guest.

Fast forward maybe a month or two? My friend starts getting letters from lawyers, informing him that he's been charged with a crime in Baltimore County. (Show of hands if you see where this is going...)

Apparently my friend had a misdemeanor drug possession arrest a few years ago. (Which FTR, I knew NOTHING about! Or I obviously would never have taken him shooting.) And he misread the form, and thought it mean was he sentenced to at least two years. (He just got probation.)

So he tries to get in tough with Baltimore County (Police, State's Attorney, court, etc) and no one would tell him anything. The just said "Wait, and you'll probably hear from us".

And he did!

He had a Public Defender who wouldn't even return his calls. Then when he finally got a hold of her, he said she was really nasty. He was starting to get worried.

Fortunately, he was assigned a new one just before the trial and she was much better.

I wrote a really good letter on his behalf. The judge read it, said it was a great letter, (asked if he could keep it) and gave my friend PBJ.

Could have been a lot worse.

That said, I don't want to scare the OP. But I wonder if he, or someone with him was a disqualified person. and they are laying their groundwork for a gun possession charge. (Hope not)

the guy with a conviction should know better...

but

that is why you do not talk to the police without an attorney.