Beginning "Serious" Clay Shooting

jaredm1 · Dec 14, 2011

Ok, so I've seen some good advice and information spread around the shotgun section of the forum by blackthorne, cirlceshooter, and others, but I can't seem to find a thread that consolidates it in one place. If there is one, point me to it...I don't want to end up in the next Hitler video

Basically, I've done enough informal clay shooting (just throwing the clays up off the stand at Elk Neck) along with a round or two of sporting clays at a private club to know that it's a lot of fun. Also enough to know that my SxS coach gun or my brother's 870 express is not going to get me the most enjoyment out of the sport.

So I'm down to choosing a semi-auto or a used O/U with a budget of just north (or south) of $1000. Seems doable to get me into the sport with a decent gun? I was looking at the Beretta 391 and the Benelli M2, but the M2 seems like more of a hunting/field gun than a sporting model (I'm not sure on this, correct me if I'm wrong). Is the O/U preferred by most for the balance, simplicity, and reliability? I'm confused on "fit" and don't know how the gun is supposed to feel in my hands.

Can anyone in the know comment? Is Loch Raven going to be the closest facility where I'd be able to rent/try out a few different models? Is there a shop you'd recommend that has a good inventory for this type of shotgun? Does anyone want to give me a serious lesson, or recommend someone who can?

Almost goes without saying, but please don't post if you're going to tell me how you can shoot a perfect round of trap with your Mossberg 500 with the chainsaw grip shooting from the hip.

blackthorne · Dec 14, 2011

$1K isn't going to buy you an O/U that will hold up to volume shooting. There are some good used O/U sporters out there in the $1500 range, but not too many that haven't been shot half to death. That leaves autoloaders. Once you get into more sporting clays and shoot registered shoots, you will notice that the vast majority of autoloader shooters shoot Beretta 391 sporters with 30" bbls. It is the most reliable and easiest gun to shoot. It holds up very well. It shoots soft. There are some aftermarket doo-dads for it, though none are really needed. It's somewhat adjustable right out of the box with the shims and whatnot. With your stated budget, I think that it's the best choice, "a no brainer" as they say.

I'm not familiar with what Loch Raven has to rent, but at PG, you can rent Beretta autos or O/Us. I would be glad to meet you there, shoot a few targets and let you pick what I have left of a brain.

jaredm1 · Dec 14, 2011

blackthorne said:
$1K isn't going to buy you an O/U that will hold up to volume shooting. There are some good used O/U sporters out there in the $1500 range, but not too many that haven't been shot half to death. That leaves autoloaders. Once you get into more sporting clays and shoot registered shoots, you will notice that the vast majority of autoloader shooters shoot Beretta 391 sporters with 30" bbls. It is the most reliable and easiest gun to shoot. It holds up very well. It shoots soft. There are some aftermarket doo-dads for it, though none are really needed. It's somewhat adjustable right out of the box with the shims and whatnot. With your stated budget, I think that it's the best choice, "a no brainer" as they say.

I'm not familiar with what Loch Raven has to rent, but at PG, you can rent Beretta autos or O/Us. I would be glad to meet you there, shoot a few targets and let you pick what I have left of a brain.

Thanks for the offer, are you free the week after Christmas? I have off that week and could plan a trip down there.

What makes a decent O/U so much more expensive? Seems like they have less moving parts and are simpler overall...

BlueHeeler · Dec 14, 2011

The trick to shooting a perfect round from the hip is… :rolleyes:

Some guns or configurations are going to feel and consequently shoot perfect for you out of the box and some will feel like garbage. It is a person feel and fit, boxers or briefs kind of preferance. It will help to rent, borrow, or beg for a few before committing. Good luck!

Schwabe · Dec 14, 2011

I am just across the bridge and happy to meet you at Pintail and let you shoot a Winchester SX3 (fastest autoloader and my gun) and a Benelli Ultralight (lightest autoloader and her gun). Pintail mostly rents Berettas which are well worn but I have never seen fail whenever me or somebody with me rented one there.

blackthorne · Dec 14, 2011

jaredm1 said:
Thanks for the offer, are you free the week after Christmas? I have off that week and could plan a trip down there.

What makes a decent O/U so much more expensive? Seems like they have less moving parts and are simpler overall...

I'm available on the 29th or 30th at noon - hunting the rest of the time. Or, we could meet with Schwabe at Pintail. That's up you you guys.

O/Us require a lot more machining, takes more time to built one, usually or can have more expensive wood, have two bbls that need to be built and regulated, two triggers, two pins, sears, etc etc.

jaredm1 · Dec 14, 2011

blackthorne said:
I'm available on the 29th or 30th at noon - hunting the rest of the time. Or, we could meet with Schwabe at Pintail. That's up you you guys.

Either the 29th or 30th work for me too. What do you say, Schwabe? Want to see if we can all get together? Both PG and Pintail are a couple hours drive for me, so it's just whatever scheduling works out.

jaredm1 · Dec 14, 2011

How does the 3901 compare to the 391 (or does it at all)? Will it hold up as well to target shooting?

Schwabe · Dec 14, 2011

jaredm1 said:
Either the 29th or 30th work for me too. What do you say, Schwabe? Want to see if we can all get together? Both PG and Pintail are a couple hours drive for me, so it's just whatever scheduling works out.

Off on the 30th, would work fine for me.

Redcobra · Dec 14, 2011

blackthorne said:
$1K isn't going to buy you an O/U that will hold up to volume shooting. There are some good used O/U sporters out there in the $1500 range, but not too many that haven't been shot half to death. That leaves autoloaders. Once you get into more sporting clays and shoot registered shoots, you will notice that the vast majority of autoloader shooters shoot Beretta 391 sporters with 30" bbls. It is the most reliable and easiest gun to shoot. It holds up very well. It shoots soft. There are some aftermarket doo-dads for it, though none are really needed. It's somewhat adjustable right out of the box with the shims and whatnot. With your stated budget, I think that it's the best choice, "a no brainer" as they say.

I'm not familiar with what Loch Raven has to rent, but at PG, you can rent Beretta autos or O/Us. I would be glad to meet you there, shoot a few targets and let you pick what I have left of a brain.

Actually, you can buy a BT-99 (single barrel trap gun) or possibly a 10 year old nice Beretta or Browning O/U for around a grand. Also a used Beretta 391 Urika (look for a Parallel Target version or adjustable comb). I have a BT-99, a Beretta O/U, a 391 Urika PT, and a Zoli skeet O/U.
I'd be happy to meet you at LR and let you try them and can give you the basics of how to shoot skeet and trap. My lessons are free, and that is about what they are worth.

jaredm1 · Dec 14, 2011

Let's plan to get together on the 30th then. RedCobra, you're of course more than welcome to join in. If you can't make it, I am closer to Loch Raven anyway, so we could do another time.

Redcobra · Dec 14, 2011

jaredm1 said:
Let's plan to get together on the 30th then. RedCobra, you're of course more than welcome to join in. If you can't make it, I am closer to Loch Raven anyway, so we could do another time.

Anytime you want to try the guns at LR, shoot me a PM.
I don't know where Pintail is and PG is about an hour from me. I live 5 minutes from LR and am often at the AGC.

blackthorne · Dec 14, 2011

OK, how about Pintail on the 30th at noon. Lets plan on 100 targets. If anyone else wants to join in, just meet us at noon.

The 391 is a better gun than a 3901.

atblis · Dec 14, 2011

391 is a great gun. Very well designed.

A little patience and some shopping around could probably yield a used O/U for close to $1k. SKB is worth considering. One of the more mechanically sound affordable O/Us.
e.g.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=264756300

circleshooter · Dec 14, 2011

blackthorne said:
I'm not familiar with what Loch Raven has to rent, but at PG, you can rent Beretta autos or O/Us. I would be glad to meet you there, shoot a few targets and let you pick what I have left of a brain.

Loch Raven Skeet and Trap rents Beretta 391 Urika semi-autos both in 12 and 20 gauge.

I don't know if I can be off on the 30th, but I'd be happy to meet you on a weekend at Loch Raven. I have a Browning O/U and a Beretta 391 Teknys you could try out.

Boom Boom · Dec 15, 2011

I've done a bunch of sporting clays shooting lately. Hopefully this info will save you time and aggravation.

I suggest an O/U if your budget allows. Look at the Browning Citori and Beretta Silver Pigeon lines. Rarely do I see somebody with something other than an O/U shotgun at the sporting clays range where I shoot. 12ga is the norm. There's nothing wrong with 20ga or 28ga if that's what you prefer and your budget allows. I have a 12ga Citori 425 sporting clays model. My shooting buddy has a higher-end 12ga Silver Pigeon. Both are beautifully made and 100% reliable.
Avoid lightweight O/Us, typically called "field grade". Get a heavy O/U, preferably with front and mid beads. If no mid bead, a gunsmith can inexpensively put one on for you, so not a big deal. Lightweight O/Us are "whippy" and it's difficult to track and lock onto clays with them.
Get a shotgun that lets you shoot open cylinder, with screw-in chokes. Learn to shoot open cylinder, then, if you wish, use progressively tighter chokes as you get better.
Shoulder a bunch of Citoris and Silver Pigeons at gun stores. Take your time to figure out which one fits you best. Ask other people for their opinion while you're shouldering the gun. The beads should naturally line up with your shooting eye, without having to crane or twist your neck. Rarely do I see people who can comfortably shoulder both Citoris and Silver Pigeons. It's almost always one or the other and depends on your body frame.
Plan to have an O/U custom fit to you, mainly in terms of length of pull and having a nice recoil pad put on. Total cost to do this is ~$150-$200. The worst thing to do is trying to shoot clays using an O/U with an incorrect length of pull or a hard recoil pad. You'll pound your shoulder into hamburger in 25 to 50 rounds and won't want to use the gun again.
Do NOT (I repeat do NOT) buy a Browning Cynergy. They are overly complicated and fragile. Somebody in my shooting group had a brand new one a couple of months ago at the clays range. After shooting a grand total of five shells (1st shell fired from the 2nd shooting station), one of the extractors broke in half and the action could no longer be closed. The gun had to be shipped back to Browning and was gone for nearly two months being repaired. Not good.
If you plan to shoot skeet and/or sporting clays, I suggest avoiding shotguns with trap and Monte Carlo stocks, otherwise you'll always be shooting above dropping clays. You'll want a field or skeet stock, which angle down. The field stock angles down the most. Trap and Monte Carlo stocks go straight back.
If you prefer a semi-auto shotgun, get a Beretta 391. Don't bother with anything else. The 391 is designed to "reliably" shoot low-recoil target loads, as reliably as a semi-auto can. Short of coughing up $1700 for a Super Sport, Benellis are not designed for target loads, especially the magnum versions.
Semi-auto shotguns are unreliable compared to O/Us, even the 391.
Semi-autos are a b*tch to clean compared to O/Us.
Quality O/Us (and SxSs) are generally the most expensive shotguns. Don't forget to factor in the cost of having it properly fit to you.
O/U (and SxS) shotguns recoil the most. It's fine if the shotgun fits you and you shoot 7/8oz or 1oz target loads. You will feel it after 50 rounds of shooting 1-1/8oz loads. Even with an O/U that fits well, expect minor bruising if you shoot 100 1-1/8oz loads. You should have zero bruising after 100 rounds through a 391.
If you have not used a quality O/U sporting shotgun, you might want to avoid it if you think you'd rather get a semi-auto. Once you try the O/U, you'll probably be hooked and nothing else will do.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Regardless, buy what *you* like and have fun.

RetNavyHD · Dec 15, 2011

O/U's are not the be all end all........semi-auto's are just as good when it comes to reliability. Sure there are more parts that have the possibility to break, I shoot more than anyone here with possibly the exception of blackthorne and never have a problem with my semi-auto. As I have said before I will put my semi-auto against anyone of you guys with a O/U and see where the chips fall....to this date I have had no takers.......OH YEA AND I WILL USE ONE CHOKE!!! LOL and yes I have O/U's but I fall back to old reliable which I also shoot much better with.

RetNavyHD

STeveZ · Dec 15, 2011

Here's a decent overview thread: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=253741

For $1000 I'm thinking your best bet is a used O/U B-gun or a new(er) 391.

Redcobra · Dec 15, 2011

Boom Boom said:
I've done a bunch of sporting clays shooting lately. Hopefully this info will save you time and aggravation.

[*]Plan to have an O/U custom fit to you, mainly in terms of length of pull and having a nice recoil pad put on. Total cost to do this is ~$150-$200. The worst thing to do is trying to shoot clays using an O/U with an incorrect length of pull or a hard recoil pad. You'll pound your shoulder into hamburger in 25 to 50 rounds and won't want to use the gun again.
LOP is the most important dimention followed by comb height to me (as well as having the correct cast).

[*]If you plan to shoot skeet and/or sporting clays, I suggest avoiding shotguns with trap and Monte Carlo stocks, otherwise you'll always be shooting above dropping clays. You'll want a field or skeet stock, which angle down. The field stock angles down the most. Trap and Monte Carlo stocks go straight back.
I don't agree with this. The key is to pattern your gun and know where it shoots. Then See the Bird-Shoot the Bird. I use all my guns for everything, although my skeet gun has shorter barrels which makes it easier to whip it around on station 8 (and 1 and 7), and my trap gun has a high rib, an adjustable comb allows you to set the height for whatever sport you are shooting. Mine raises with plastic washers on the posts. I have a certain number of washers for trap and another number for skeet. I see a number of skeet shooters with fixed Monte Carlo stocks as well. Come watch Winter League at LR this Sunday morning and see what people are shooting.

[*]O/U (and SxS) shotguns recoil the most. It's fine if the shotgun fits you and you shoot 7/8oz or 1oz target loads. You will feel it after 50 rounds of shooting 1-1/8oz loads. Even with an O/U that fits well, expect minor bruising if you shoot 100 1-1/8oz loads. You should have zero bruising after 100 rounds through a 391.
I shot 100 rounds with a Beretta SP and 100 rounds with a Browning BT-99 yesterday. No Bruising. Not a bit. No Pain, NONE. I shot 1-1/8oz 3dram equivalent loads with #8 shot.
My SP was fit to me, and the BT-99 PLus has enough adjustments that I duplicated the dimensions from the SP to the BT-99.

[*]If you have not used a quality O/U sporting shotgun, you might want to avoid it if you think you'd rather get a semi-auto. Once you try the O/U, you'll probably be hooked and nothing else will do.
[/LIST]

+1000
Anyway, I hope this helps. Regardless, buy what *you* like and have fun.

Hope this helps.

circleshooter · Dec 15, 2011

jaredm1 said:
So I'm down to choosing a semi-auto or a used O/U with a budget of just north (or south) of $1000. Seems doable to get me into the sport with a decent gun? I was looking at the Beretta 391 and the Benelli M2, but the M2 seems like more of a hunting/field gun than a sporting model (I'm not sure on this, correct me if I'm wrong). Is the O/U preferred by most for the balance, simplicity, and reliability? I'm confused on "fit" and don't know how the gun is supposed to feel in my hands.

If you're willing to go a bit "north" of your $1k budget a smart shopper could get a new Beretta 391 - which - in my opinion is the only semi-auto really worth considering. It's reliable. They can easily shoot all the clay games. And they're made to last a lifetime. I bought a Beretta 391 Teknys Gold Sporting - a fair bit more than your stated budget but all the 391's use the same action, etc. - and I really enjoy shooting it. Even though it has a 30 inch barrel it moves quick and smoothly. Not much recoil and the action is smooth as silk.

O/U's are elegant, classic, reliable guns that come in many configurations with differing stock shapes. I think it's easier to get a great gun fit with an O/U (just my opinion). I shoot a Browning Citori 525 Sporting and I truly do love it. I had an adjustable butt plate installed on it so now it fits me perfectly and not just well. For me, it's a keeper.

My advice would be that if you're serious about getting in to clay shooting that you get the best gun you can afford. In fact, determine what you can comfortably afford and then save up some more and go up a notch. The price of quality only hurts once.

And as several people who've posted in this thread have mentioned, go someplace and rent a Beretta 391, or meet up with someone who has one and will let you try it. I would certainly meet you at Loch Raven on a weekend and let you shoot any of my guns - and others have here have offered the same.

Beginning "Serious" Clay Shooting

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