subguns for self Defense?

SCARCQB · Feb 28, 2014

clandestine said:
Your theories are sound Scar IMO. Guns are tools and one cannot worry about how a jury will see the weapon used or if the weapon is never returned. The purpose of the tool is to preserve YOUR life, not to preserve ownership of said tool.

If one is worried about a Jury then can one not request a bench trial? That's what a good attorney is for.

If I dont survive the fight.... The stamp collection wont really matter anymore.

If I value my gun more than I value my life or the lives of others, then something is wrong with my way of thinking.

coopermania · Feb 28, 2014

shooting a pagan motorcyclistd hate to lose an NFA firearm after the self defense shooting. Same with a tricked out AR15 or *insert kitted out gun that's worth lots of money here*, or even just an old unscary looking family heirloom. Assume that the police will have to take your firearm as evidence. Assume that you may not ever be able to get it back.

As for legal ramifications, you may want to look up (assuming you haven't already) Gary Fadden and Harry Beckwith.[/QUOTE]

That day changed Garys life and his Girlfriend life forever, Most here probably don't know anything about it. It was financially costly to Gary and H&K. I never asked him if he got his AC556 back or not. And the ongoing threats from the Pagans.

clandestine · Feb 28, 2014

SCARCQB said:
If I dont survive the fight.... The stamp collection wont really matter anymore.

If I value my gun more than I value my life or the lives of others, then something is wrong with my way of thinking.

Yup. I was just saying I perceive that you had my line of thinking. Sadly many don't.

IMBLITZVT · Feb 28, 2014

There are just to many factors. Home defense against what? Who else is in the house, how close are surrounding houses?

The real advantage Full Auto fire gives is suppression fire. Keeping the enemy down while you are able to move wins battles. Thats what the one shot, one kill, guys often don't understand. Home defense is a bit different. In a Riot situation, which I consider a primary reason to own FA in this area, it gives an individual the a strong chance of being able to defend his property and family. If we are talking about an individual or a small group breaking down the front door, the advantage is not as great. You will likely not have more than a single mag. While that is probably 20-30 rounds or double what most semi auto pistols give you. The Pump shotgun has the advantage of the sound of pumping a round into the chamber. If that sound does not scare someone away, you are really in for a fight. If they are coming in with body armor, a SMG or pistol have pretty much the same issue. Of course a rifle would be better. However with a rifle, you really have to start worrying about shooting neighbors...etc. With the houses today, a 223 could probably shoot through 10 houses until it found a poodle to kill.

Me personally, I have gone for a pistol by the bed but my AR and future M16 as the go to guns if I have a minute to prepare.

Just hope you are not one of those poor people getting raided in the middle of the night because they confused your house number with a drug dealer... its not going to end well no matter what happens.

IMBLITZVT · Feb 28, 2014

SCARCQB said:
...
1. HK MP5 SD
2. HK MP5
3. UZI full size
4. COLT635
5. Sterling MkIV
6. Lage Max11/31
7. Sten
8. SW76
9. Thompson
10. MP40
....

List needs work. Here is mine:

1. HK MP5 (or SD)
2. UZI full size
3. COLT635
4. Lage Max11
5. Thompson
6. Sterling MkIV
7. MP40

The SW76 and Sten can't even make my list as they would be after several other more rare guns like the Mini Uzi, M10....etc. However IMHO, the MP5 is clearly far and away the best sub gun on the market for pure shooting. I don't like the lack of a good way to mount optics which actually might move the Colt into the #2 spot and the Uzi to #3. Optics for me starts playing a pretty big role.

kenpo333 · Feb 28, 2014

A1Uniform said:
If you use it, the States a Attorneys Office will hold it for evidence for 75 years in a case involving a death, even if you were 100% in the right.

If possible, use something you don't mind never seeing again.

That same DA will be showing the weapon and saying things like overkill and calling it a military assault weapon instead of a self defense weapon. Then the civil trial will come afterwards.

clandestine · Mar 1, 2014

And now its a Police thread saying a pistol is preferable. Expected.

Scar is the kind of guy with a loaded setup next to his bed (Just like me). Carbine and Pistol along with a carrier with spare mags. Takes 5 seconds to throw it on. You have some smoke, reloads, restraints, and a BOK.

As far as penetration goes my experience says pistol calibers penetrate MORE against things like walls and such, rifle rounds break up FAST.

Coming up next will be a suggestion from some expert on how they use birdshot for self defense. :lol2:

Tactics · Mar 1, 2014

I prefer birdshot for self defense

Just kidding. Whatever you are comfortable with and trust. If a FA burst doesn't send the bad guy running he deserves what's behind door number 2.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rattlesnake46319 · Mar 1, 2014

clandestine said:
And now its a Police thread saying a pistol is preferable. Expected.

Scar is the kind of guy with a loaded setup next to his bed (Just like me). Carbine and Pistol along with a carrier with spare mags. Takes 5 seconds to throw it on. You have some smoke, reloads, restraints, and a BOK.

As far as penetration goes my experience says pistol calibers penetrate MORE against things like walls and such, rifle rounds break up FAST.

Coming up next will be a suggestion from some expert on how they use a Taurus Judge loaded with birdshot for self defense.

FIFY

clandestine · Mar 1, 2014

Rattlesnake46319 said:
FIFY

Now the internet is done. Thanks.

amoebicmagician · Mar 1, 2014

frankly, legal battles are only a concern if you survive, so use whatever you think gives you the best chance of survival.

Anyways, if we're talking about a real SHTF scenario and not just a home invasion, there will most likely BE NO legal ramifications.

I think when the SHTF is when all the NFA items REALLY come into their own

amoebicmagician · Mar 1, 2014

SCARCQB said:
I boughtan AC556 because of the Gary Fadden incident...

I still can't believe they had the nerve to try him for that crap.

He ran from those thugs for 20 freaking miles.

The guy was just a kid, not even 25 at the time.

Biggfoot44 · Mar 1, 2014

Notwithstanding the current popularity of 5.56 AR based carbines , pistol cal carbines remain a useful tool, so no arguement on that score.

Controled , rapid semi-auto fire vs noisemaker switch , not so much. Semi can do quite well at making rapid Hits. Happy switches are good for making noise to encourage the BG's to keep their heads down. But until Baltimore and PG County resemble 1980's Beruit in actuality , and not just metaphor , it's rarely a wise idea.
And just for devil's advocate , in case I zig when I should have zagged, I'd rather the co-trustee sell toys to pay for the kids college , than have the cpl in the evidence section use them to get a few admiring chuckles every few years.

But then my preferd go to long gun is generally a 12ga pump.

teratos · Mar 1, 2014

I can only imagine the field day the local news stations and even the National news would have with the use of a sub machinegun for home defense. Just look at some of the threads here over the years where people are afraid to put an after-market trigger in their EDC Glock because they are afraid of the scrutiny it would bring should they need to pull the trigger. :lol2:

Subguns like the MP5 were designed for the exact situations homeowners would be in if there were an intruder or multiple intruders in the home. The police carry pistols because they are convenient. If they are better prepared (i.e. a SWAT raid) we usually see them with subguns or even M4's. I have never studied their thought processes, but I am certain that years of experience went into the choice of tools for the job. If you are most comfortable with an MP5, that is what you should use. It is extremely unlikely you will ever need it, but should lightening strike, you should choose what you are most effective with. I would suspect that should there be multiple intruders, the sound of full-auto fire on the first and unluckiest of those intruders would be a huge deterrent. The MP5 SD brings with it an unusual problem fior a home defense firearm: it is pretty damn quiet. If the unlucky perps companions in crime are in other parts of the house, they may not even know their numbers had been decreased by one. There will be no deterrent effect.

In the end, I think you should do what you are most effective with, and worry about consequences later. The only thing that needs to be proven is that you felt your life was in danger and you took appropriate action. While the choice of tool for the job is unusual and will make for some great television and MDS threads, at the end of the day your family will be safe.

Alea Jacta Est · Mar 1, 2014

Comfort and confidence.

Whatever you are most comfy with and confident using.

There's a lot of what ifs in the OP's original conditions. For one, I have no comfort nor confidence in FA firearms. Never trained with one. I can see the merit in given situations.

That said, Gary's extraordinary event/experience aside, who gives a damn how you're judged or what they "take" as evidence if the situation demands and justifies lethal force, then by all means...apply lethal force. Whether that's in the form of FA or the axe you split firewood into kindling with.

I appreciate the OP's apparent intent and have enjoyed the dialog it engendered. In the end, FA is not a generally reasonable alternative w/o regard to how much more effective it might be. For me, it's almost like asking if claymores aren't THE BEST AND MOST EFFECTIVE security devices when you absolutely, positively want to keep bad guys from having their way. I never trained with them and don't have access, but I have stayed in a Holiday Inn and can appreciate the almost absolute lethality they represent when properly employed.

Happy Saturday shooters.

SCARCQB · Mar 1, 2014

As of today.. Im setting up one of my burp guns for HD.

And the lucky subgun is.........,.(drumroll please)

The lage max-11

The happy switch makes my trigger finger sorta like " Jerry Miculek"

SCARCQB · Mar 1, 2014

The Lage max-11 is a game changer in the realm of NFA. It allows the MAC11/9 machine pistol to perform like subguns in a higher class. The slow rate of fire( mine runs between 630-650 rpm) makes the gun very controllable. Reloading is very fast and instinctive as it employs the principle of the hand will find the other hand, even in complete darkness.( this is why UZIs have pistol type magwells)

It is accurate enough for competition, the heavy trigger pull adds to safety... Requiring positive input from the operator. Allows for optics and is relatively cheap compared to top of the line SMGs.

SCARCQB · Mar 1, 2014

In addition, I may be able to acquire a Custom barrel for The Lage that is chambered for the 22 TCM.

This badboy round is a 40 grain, .224 cal, hollowpoint that flies in excess of 2000FPS.. From a necked down 9 mm case.

This brings the Lage into the Subcarbine/ PDW category. With a simple change of the barrel and ammo.

SCARCQB · Mar 1, 2014

clandestine said:
And now its a Police thread saying a pistol is preferable. Expected.

Scar is the kind of guy with a loaded setup next to his bed (Just like me). Carbine and Pistol along with a carrier with spare mags. Takes 5 seconds to throw it on. You have some smoke, reloads, restraints, and a BOK.

As far as penetration goes my experience says pistol calibers penetrate MORE against things like walls and such, rifle rounds break up FAST.

Coming up next will be a suggestion from some expert on how they use birdshot for self defense.

Chad,

I Think out of the box... Most of the time.
I have ditched the AR for a bullpup many years ago and was frowned upon. I ditched the pistol and prefer a PS90 SBR. May supplement that with a subgun. My next project is a Lage Max11 chambered in 22TCM.... That should be interesting.

Defensive tactics can be studied by the offense. It is always a good idea to keep them guessing.

SCARCQB · Mar 1, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
List needs work. Here is mine:

1. HK MP5 (or SD)
2. UZI full size
3. COLT635
4. Lage Max11
5. Thompson
6. Sterling MkIV
7. MP40

The SW76 and Sten can't even make my list as they would be after several other more rare guns like the Mini Uzi, M10....etc. However IMHO, the MP5 is clearly far and away the best sub gun on the market for pure shooting. I don't like the lack of a good way to mount optics which actually might move the Colt into the #2 spot and the Uzi to #3. Optics for me starts playing a pretty big role.

For me, it controllability. A hit with a 22LR trumps a miss with 44 mag.
In my experience, subguns with cyclic rates below 700 rpm are very controllable. The heavier weight also soaks up recoil and muzzle flip.

The mini and micro UZI, standard macs, G18. Etc have cyclic rates that are beyond practical. the p90 has a high cyclic rate but the reduced recoil of the 5.7 allows you to stay on target more efficiently. ... The subgun has evolved into the PDW.

subguns for self Defense?

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