Home Defense question

RoadDawg said:

Never "...work on a story to tell the Police." No matter how you think you may have it all figured out, it will be a lie if it did not happen that way. Good Detectives are trained to look for rehearsed statements. Once discovered, a lie will taint everything you've said. That will never bode well for everything else which is true.

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Not only do I think RD's spot-on, but I don't think he's made it sufficiently clear why. Modern forensics've become so advanced that the crime-scene evidence makes it almost impossible to lie about what happened.

What I always tell students: Unless you're 100% certain you're legally justified to use lethal force to defend yourself (and, yes, that's a high hurdle to reach since these things usually happen in the blink-of-an-eye, which is why training for real-life scenarios is more effective than standard "tactical" or military training), keep your sidearm holstered....don't shoot.

Hanging up before first responders arrive is not the advice given by the pros. Fred's version is better.

It might be better to ask to go to the ER, esp if you are being asked to go to police station.

When it comes to defense in general, but especially home defense, I like the puffer fish strategy. That is look like a regular fish, mind your business, don't go where dangerous fish go; but if attack is imminent puff-up (make warning clear and respond accretively and aggressively. Puffer fish bite is as bad or worse than a piranha. Also know in your heart that even if they eat you, you'll kill them in the process.

Minuteman said:

When it comes to defense in general, but especially home defense, I like the puffer fish strategy. That is look like a regular fish, mind your business, don't go where dangerous fish go; but if attack is imminent puff-up (make warning clear and respond accretively and aggressively.

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I suppose there's merit to the puffer fish approach (especially during mating). But I think it's generally best to remain as gray (unobtrusive) as possible for as long as possible. Puffing-up and/or looking aggressive only attracts attention, which may also increase the likelihood of an unwanted confrontation. An ambush (surprise attack), especially when launched from an unexpected source, is nearly always more effective than an attack by an obvious aggressor.
Does that make sense?
Same goes for OC vs CC and for the same reasons.

p.s. It's interesting that you referenced puffer fish because they're cited (negatively) in r/K Theory.

fred333 said:

Not only do I think RD's spot-on, but I don't think he's made it sufficiently clear why. Modern forensics've become so advanced that the crime-scene evidence makes it almost impossible to lie about what happened.

What I always tell students: Unless you're 100% certain you're legally justified to use lethal force to defend yourself (and, yes, that's a high hurdle to reach since these things usually happen in the blink-of-an-eye, which is why training for real-life scenarios is more effective than standard "tactical" or military training), keep your sidearm holstered....don't shoot.

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I would have a slight disagreement... the mere pointing of a firearm is the use of deadly force by threat. I would suggest this...

Unless you 100% believe you're personally under attack and in mortal fear that you or one of the members of your family is at risk of death... (in other words... "believe that you have no other choice") you are not justified to take a life to defend yourself...


Hesitation to present that threat to an invading person or persons, may be a fatal error on the part of the victim. There may not be any time to be 100% positive... The legal standard is usually accepted as "In fear for my life."

But ... it is your class... Teach it as you see fit within the parameters of your training and advice from legal minds.

RoadDawg said:

I would have a slight disagreement... the mere pointing of a firearm is the use of deadly force by threat. I would suggest this...
Unless you 100% believe you're personally under attack and in mortal fear that you or one of the members of your family is at risk of death... (in other words... "believe that you have no other choice") you are not justified to take a life to defend yourself...

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My comment was intended only as a response to "puffing".
Otherwise, I agree with you.

fred333 said:

My comment was intended only as a response to "puffing".
Otherwise, I agree with you.

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same page...

I am just trying to make this a pick or choose one or the other. I am not looking for all the usual help. Thank you guys.

Above is last line in OP's original post. Reading comprehension is seriously lacking here once again. I'm betting OP stopped after the first page. This went totally off topic as usual.

Fred333, I agree with your part about not 'puffin-up', tough-guys get a lot of negative attention from other tough-guys. This is a thug, or prison yard mentality, and not good. I was suggesting to simply 'rise to the occasion' if and when absolutely necessary. And being prepared to do that: mentally, physically, and with tools.

rico903 said:

I am just trying to make this a pick or choose one or the other. I am not looking for all the usual help. Thank you guys.

Above is last line in OP's original post. Reading comprehension is seriously lacking here once again. I'm betting OP stopped after the first page. This went totally off topic as usual.

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I answered the OP in my very first post (see #12), it's the OP's decision to read the rest of 'this thing got derailed' or not.

Welcome to MDShooters, this is what we do.

I have read them all but should not have said anything about the mag springs

Threeband said:

That makes sense.
Same reason I inflate my tires to only ten pounds.

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Threeband said:

Yes, and stretch them out to be sure.

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Mark75H said:

Hanging up before first responders arrive is not the advice given by the pros. Fred's version is better.

It might be better to ask to go to the ER, esp if you are being asked to go to police station.

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Not exactly, police and police instructors teaching private classes might say to stay on the phone, but every self-defense lawyer and instructor for primarily civilian CCW has told me to put the phone down at minimum, most advise to hang up after giving the basic details following a script, and that you feel too sick to continue. The call is recorded, even while on hold, the dispatcher is trained to keep you talking, the recording is the first piece of evidence in the resulting investigation, and the longer you stay on the phone, the more likely the chance that you will say something or the dispatcher can hear something that can be used against you. If you have a need to, you can always call 911 back. The dispatcher can give bad advice that while you are not legally required to follow it, failure to do so can be used against you in court, it is distracting and occupies your thought process when you may need to help your family, gather your thoughts to deal with police, or there may be other threats. The call benefits you by bringing help, and giving a description of yourself to slightly reduce the chances police will mistake you for the assailant, anything other than that basic information will benefit the police and possibly your prosecutor.

It is good advice though to ask for medical assistance, and go to the hospital, might be in police custody while there, but won't be as difficult to deal with and gather your thoughts as it would be in jail. Going through the experience can bring on severe panic attacks or even a heart condition which is better treated in a hospital. You may also have injuries you were unaware of until the adrenalin wears off that require treatment, and if the case makes it to trial it can help provide evidence to the defense, and can help illustrate that you were indeed in fear for your life, and suffered the mental, and possibly physical trauma expected of such a situation.

rico903 said:

I am just trying to make this a pick or choose one or the other. I am not looking for all the usual help. Thank you guys.

Above is last line in OP's original post. Reading comprehension is seriously lacking here once again. I'm betting OP stopped after the first page. This went totally off topic as usual.

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MDS is a terrific resource, and many of our members have vast real world experience to share. Sometimes the urge to be helpful overcomes the request to just answer the question asked.

R56 Ed said:

MDS is a terrific resource, and many of our members have vast real world experience to share. Sometimes the urge to be helpful overcomes the request to just answer the question asked.

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Many times in providing a thorough answer to a simple question, it's best to answer questions that weren't asked. Especially in defense, nothing is simple and compartmentalized. It's more likely the answer to a simple question requires the interplay between training, context, laws, and equipment than just a simple a or b. Either way, it's food for thought people can always just ignore and move past if they want to.

alucard0822 said:

Not exactly, police and police instructors teaching private classes might say to stay on the phone, but every self-defense lawyer and instructor for primarily civilian CCW has told me to put the phone down at minimum, most advise to hang up after giving the basic details following a script, and that you feel too sick to continue. The call is recorded, even while on hold, the dispatcher is trained to keep you talking, the recording is the first piece of evidence in the resulting investigation, and the longer you stay on the phone, the more likely the chance that you will say something or the dispatcher can hear something that can be used against you. If you have a need to, you can always call 911 back. The dispatcher can give bad advice that while you are not legally required to follow it, failure to do so can be used against you in court, it is distracting and occupies your thought process when you may need to help your family, gather your thoughts to deal with police, or there may be other threats. The call benefits you by bringing help, and giving a description of yourself to slightly reduce the chances police will mistake you for the assailant, anything other than that basic information will benefit the police and possibly your prosecutor.

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All good points, but here's my thinking. Yes, everything you say to 911 can and will be used against you. But that very same recording can and may be used to exculpate you in court.
Say, you're the victim of a home invasion. You've made it to your safe room, bedroom or whatever, closed/locked the door with your family inside and you've got your shotgun (or sidearm/rifle) in hand. Dial 911 and after giving them the basics, you loudly yell to the perpetrator, "Get out of my house now!! 911 is on the phone, the police are en route and I'm armed. If you breach my door, I will be forced to defend myself. Get out of my house now!!"
As you correctly stated, this is all recorded and will be entered into the court record as evidence.

fred333 said:

All good points, but here's my thinking. Yes, everything you say to 911 can and will be used against you. But that very same recording can and may be used to exculpate you in court.
Say, you're the victim of a home invasion. You've made it to your safe room, bedroom or whatever, closed/locked the door with your family inside and you've got your shotgun (or sidearm/rifle) in hand. Dial 911 and after giving them the basics, you loudly yell to the perpetrator, "Get out of my house now!! 911 is on the phone, the police are en route and I'm armed. If you breach my door, I will be forced to defend myself. Get out of my house now!!"
As you correctly stated, this is all recorded and will be entered into the court record as evidence.

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This is the reason some suggest giving the basics and setting the phone down. Still a gamble though, one case in AZ was complicated by a 2nd assailant being recorded asking "why did you shoot him, he didn't do anything", at first it was attributed to the guy's wife, and helped bring the case to trial, was countered though and he was aquitted. One danger of staying on the phone is bad 911 advice, plenty of occasions where they tell the person to put the gun down, or stay in place, even if kids are in another room, or police are not on the scene, following their advice can be dangerous, ignoring it while legal may be used against you, removing certainty that you were able to hear it generally benefits you. We all remember the confusion during the Zimmerman trial from the 911 call, and weither or not he followed Martin after the dispatcher told him not to, and his comments about "they always get away". Many aspects of defense are personal, and the techniques you train with and plan on sometimes come down to an informed decision. In my case, I'll defend myself first, and call 911 as soon as I safely can, if the situation is ongoing for some reason, i'll probably set the phone down, if it's secure, and we are safe I'll probably hang up after giving basic info.

If you hang up, do they come faster?

MikeTF said:

If you hang up, do they come faster?

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maybe, but to get them there the fastest goes something like:

hello 911

A man broke into my house, I was in fear for my life, and was forced to defend myself, I shot him, I think he is dead

OK, police are on the way, are you sure he is dead?

BANG< BANG< BANG

yup, I'm sure

alucard0822 said:

One danger of staying on the phone is bad 911 advice, plenty of occasions where they tell the person to put the gun down, or stay in place, even if kids are in another room, or police are not on the scene, following their advice can be dangerous, ignoring it while legal may be used against you, removing certainty that you were able to hear it generally benefits you.

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I guess that's where common sense takes precedence over blindly doing what you're told (see also Doctrine of competing harms).

We all remember the confusion during the Zimmerman trial from the 911 call, and weither or not he followed Martin after the dispatcher told him not to, and his comments about "they always get away". Many aspects of defense are personal, and the techniques you train with and plan on sometimes come down to an informed decision. In my case, I'll defend myself first, and call 911 as soon as I safely can, if the situation is ongoing for some reason, i'll probably set the phone down, if it's secure, and we are safe I'll probably hang up after giving basic info.

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Trouble is that most of what was reported about that infamous 911 call was wrong or taken out of context (as's sadly typical of the media). Had Zimmerman been able to dial 911 and leave his phone beside him on the ground as the attack by Martin ensued, I think the outcome would've been much different (favouring Zimmerman). Ayoob's written about this and Whittle's also offered some of his cogent musings on the subject:

alucard0822 said:

Not exactly, police and police instructors teaching private classes might say to stay on the phone, but every self-defense lawyer and instructor for primarily civilian CCW has told me to put the phone down at minimum, most advise to hang up after giving the basic details following a script, and that you feel too sick to continue. The call is recorded, even while on hold, the dispatcher is trained to keep you talking, the recording is the first piece of evidence in the resulting investigation, and the longer you stay on the phone, the more likely the chance that you will say something or the dispatcher can hear something that can be used against you. If you have a need to, you can always call 911 back. The dispatcher can give bad advice that while you are not legally required to follow it, failure to do so can be used against you in court, it is distracting and occupies your thought process when you may need to help your family, gather your thoughts to deal with police, or there may be other threats. The call benefits you by bringing help, and giving a description of yourself to slightly reduce the chances police will mistake you for the assailant, anything other than that basic information will benefit the police and possibly your prosecutor.

It is good advice though to ask for medical assistance, and go to the hospital, might be in police custody while there, but won't be as difficult to deal with and gather your thoughts as it would be in jail. Going through the experience can bring on severe panic attacks or even a heart condition which is better treated in a hospital. You may also have injuries you were unaware of until the adrenalin wears off that require treatment, and if the case makes it to trial it can help provide evidence to the defense, and can help illustrate that you were indeed in fear for your life, and suffered the mental, and possibly physical trauma expected of such a situation.

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Expert advice.

I unfortunately have a history of heart issues, and went to the emergency room for 'chest pain' most recently as last year. I kinda made a thread about it; I at least provided some pointers about how to know if its your heart or possibly something else. I'm certain the stress of being involved in a shooting of any kind would require me to spend several hours in an ER getting checked out. Much better alternative than sitting in a holding cell, if the police or DA decide to try to prosecute me for any reason.

One slight recommendation, after attending attorney Andrew Branca's excellent class on the Law of Self Defense; I can see more angles to the issue, and I'd like to hear his opinion on this issue. He has posted here on MDS before, and may search for his name and comment, but otherwise, I value his opinion. In a nutshell, if you are sincerely in compliance with his principles, you will be ok, and even if you don't testify, the recording will be your witness and that's an alternative way you could communicate with the jury (should it go to trial). Also, what you initially tell the police will also be admitted as evidence and the jury will hear it, even if you don't testify. A few recent high profile cases went this way, one of the most infamous examples was the Zimmerman case. He did this, and gave a full statement (without a lawyer present) to the police, and it all helped him. I'm not siding with Zimmerman, he has since gotten into more 'trouble', but when he was attacked, it sounds like he did everything right.

smokey0118 said:

Many times in providing a thorough answer to a simple question, it's best to answer questions that weren't asked. Especially in defense, nothing is simple and compartmentalized. It's more likely the answer to a simple question requires the interplay between training, context, laws, and equipment than just a simple a or b. Either way, it's food for thought people can always just ignore and move past if they want to.

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Absolutely. I think this is one of the biggest benefits to following this forum, folks who read, understand, and debate the law and/or issues of self-defense both mentally rehearse 'worst case' situations, and have a better ability to articulate and know right from wrong. When you read various opinions from hundreds of different people over many years, if nothing else you really think about these things and are more likely to react better than if you had never considered a particular situation.

alucard0822 said:

maybe, but to get them there the fastest goes something like:

hello 911

A man broke into my house, I was in fear for my life, and was forced to defend myself, I shot him, I think he is dead

OK, police are on the way, are you sure he is dead?

BANG< BANG< BANG

yup, I'm sure

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Classic.

{ps. don't no one actually do this}