Very odd visit from the ATF.

gprimr1 said:

There is a HUGE difference here.

If the police take you in, you absolutely should assert your right to a lawyer and to shut up.

If the police knock on your door and say they've had a spike in crime reports in your neighborhood, have you seen anything? You should not slam the door and tell them to get a warrant.

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BUT, What if the question goes;

"they've had a spike in crime reports in your neighborhood, have you seen anything, and the reason we ask is that we have information that you may know something about the crime. Someone said that you may know something because you were where the crime took place".

Maybe the real reason the LEO did not share with the OP is they do have someone in custody that took the gun or they suspect took the gun but they are lying as fast as they can think of the lies and one of there lies included the OP's name.

Maybe he said that he met the OP at the range and the OP said the gun belonged to him and that he could barrow it. Or he lied to the LEO's and told them that You gave him the gun to try and that you told him it was OK because it belonged to you and you wanted to sell it so you let him take it home for a week to try it out with the understanding when you met back up with him the following week he would either pay you or give you the gun back.

Yes, I know...very crazy. But when bad guys are lying to save their a$$ the think of whatever they can to save the as fast as they can think of it. All lies of coarse from someone trying to minimize the trouble they are in.

But if you place yourself in the shoes of the LEO's they have to follow all leads. And they have a lead that implicates you they got from the bad guy, who knows for sure where this may end up. And that fac6t that the OP called everyone and their brother that could not tell him one thing about what is going on doesn't make me feel any better.

Maybe they just told you that they are going to all the members homes that were in during the time the gun turned up missing. And maybe the truth is your one of the only few they want to talk to because someone gave them your name trying to shift the blame onto you? May the person the really took the gun was behind you in line at some point reading over your shoulder so he could give your name to the LEO's at some point if necessary?

Coming to your home because you happen to live an an area where crime is taking please where reasonable people may come to the conclusion that anyone that lives in that area may have seen something fishy. Si allot different then the LEO's coming to your home because your name was on a list.

Now please do not take what I'm saying as I'm in the camp of the "I will not talk to the LEO's". Because if I were in the OP shoes I would have also talked to them. I would however got the LEO's info and I would have had more questions for him then he had for me until the fact that he sitting at my house made sense to me before he left my home. But I'm just pointing out that the LEO in conducting an investigation and what he tells you may be 100% the truth, Or he could also be lying 100% to you with everything that they tell you because for whatever reason, good or bad, they think you may have more to tell them that your letting on and all they are trying to do is get to the truth.

Let's say this guy Bob and Pet were both at the gun range and they do not know each other. And lets say that Pet figured out how to steel this AR. Pet also has this plan that when the LEO's question him and to try to get the LEO's off of his track he tells the LEO that is sitting in his house that there was this guy that goes by the name of Bob he heard telling a friend of his that he could get the AR out of the store.

Now Bob did not do anything wrong at all and was not even talking to anyone during his visit to the store. When the LEO's come to talk to Bob they are not going to tell Bob what they know or have been told. They will select their question very carefully to see if they can get Bob to trip himself up where they may get a clue. So now Bob has his friendly neighborhood LEO's sitting in his home being less then honest with Bob as they ask Bob questions.

Now you may say, "Ya,sure. But if Bob did nothing wrong he has nothing to worry about". But depending what the LEO's were told about Bob, and what Bob tells the LEO's, and how Bob makes what he tells them sound, may make all the difference between the LEO's leaving Bob's home knowing Bob had nothing to do with it, or Bob needing to hire a high dollar attorney to prove Pet was lying about him to a judge.

And all Bob did was go to the range to have a nice time shooting his gun. It would not have been the first time in history that nothing more then the wrong place at the wrong time got someone in allot of trouble.

Never even occurred to me to ask.

We've known each other since Kindergarten. (And our fathers, my uncles and my grandfather were hunting buddies. Small world, right?) He is my oldest friend. (Although we don't get together any where near as much as back in the day.) But I had no idea he had even been arrested. (He's not the type to "brag" about something like that)

But hear. The det. asked all kinds of questions about who he was with, what kind of gun he shot, who it belonged to, etc. And my friend told him the truth.

He asked if he had been there (the range) before.

Luckily, no. That was the first time I took him, and we hadn't had a chance to go back yet. But were were planning on it. And there would have been plenty of time to before the other shoe dropped. Which probaly would have resulted in more charges.

He was very fortunate.

Merlin said:

And all Bob did was go to the range to have a nice time shooting his gun. It would not have been the first time in history that nothing more then the wrong place at the wrong time got someone in allot of trouble.

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Moral of the thread...

Don't go to the range with ANYBODY named "Bob"!

Yeah, I've been wanting to take one of my coworkers to a range, but he has a juvie record he needs to have expunged first.

At least both of us know this and he's going to have his attorney look into it. He found out it was still accessible when he refinanced his house ... didn't show the first time he financed about 10 years ago.


And his name isn't Bob

Safetech said:

I'm coming into this thread late. And I didn't read every single reply. So forgive me if this has already been brought up...


I took a friend of mind to the range with me. A few weeks later, a Baltimore County Detective came to his house and asked for him by name. He said that a handgun had been stolen from the range while he (and I) were there. And asked the normal "Did you see anything suspicious?" type questions.

He told him he was definitely not a suspect in the case. But was just trying to talk to everybody who was there. Then he thanked my friend for his time, and left.

I thought it odd that I never got a visit, or even a phone call. But I just figured it probably had to do with me being a member and him just being a guest.

Fast forward maybe a month or two? My friend starts getting letters from lawyers, informing him that he's been charged with a crime in Baltimore County. (Show of hands if you see where this is going...)

Apparently my friend had a misdemeanor drug possession arrest a few years ago. (Which FTR, I knew NOTHING about! Or I obviously would never have taken him shooting.) And he misread the form, and thought it mean was he sentenced to at least two years. (He just got probation.)

So he tries to get in tough with Baltimore County (Police, State's Attorney, court, etc) and no one would tell him anything. The just said "Wait, and you'll probably hear from us".

And he did!

He had a Public Defender who wouldn't even return his calls. Then when he finally got a hold of her, he said she was really nasty. He was starting to get worried.

Fortunately, he was assigned a new one just before the trial and she was much better.

I wrote a really good letter on his behalf. The judge read it, said it was a great letter, (asked if he could keep it) and gave my friend PBJ.

Could have been a lot worse.

That said, I don't want to scare the OP. But I wonder if he, or someone with him was a disqualified person. and they are laying their groundwork for a gun possession charge. (Hope not)

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That's the thing, you never know where things may lead. One second your Mr helpful and the next your spending money on an attorney.

Safetech said:

Moral of the thread...

Don't go to the range with ANYBODY named "Bob"!

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LOL

vector03 said:

The innocence project has freed 301 wrongfully convicted people. Some of these people ended up behind bars because they didn't invoke their right to counsel or remain silent when they should have.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be willing to help the police, but don't tell me folks who are cautious are crazy to be cautious. There's clearly at least 301 people now free who should have been more cautious.

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At least one of those individuals did do the crime they were convicted of and I bet that most of those are freed upon technicalities; not innocence.

However, the point is valid.

Samuel said:

...Simply by opening the door to answer you're allowing this unknown individual to judge what he sees in your home.

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That's why, for security in general, I designed my house so that you can see Jack (or Bob) when you try to look inside from the front door. I'd have no problem answering the door and assisting the officer in doing his job to solve a crime and possibly save someone's life. That said, I would choose my words wisely to make sure that I wouldn't be wrongly suspected of anything.

Also keep in mind the reason for the LEO to just shows up and ring the door bell opposed to calling ahead or just asking the same question over the phone, is to catch you off guard and judge your reaction to all questions as well as your reaction and behavior because he is now sitting in your home. . If they were really only wondering if you happen to see something that maybe helpful in finding this missing gun these question could have been asked over the phone.

When they go down a list, everyone is a suspect. Making you feel like your not is just how the game is played. From the time you answer the door, to every thing you say and do, as well as how you look when you say whatever is being judged by a pro with the motivation of finding a bad guy. And that's if no one has lied to the LEO's about you. And at the end of the day LEO's are just people like the rest of us and people do make mistakes. The problem is when

Kinbote said:

In the discussion of pointless laws, like requiring seatbelts, several police who responded mentioned that the main utility of these laws, in their estimation, was to provide a pretext to pull citizens over and look around their vehicles for evidence of other crimes, such as smuggling untaxed cigarettes. So I think it is stellar advice to never allow a policeman in your home. Shutting the door on one is common sense.

As far as not talking to a policeman, last I checked it was a Constitutional right. I've not the slightest use for people who run around telling me I shouldn't exercise my Second Amendment right, claiming they see no need for me to own a firearm, and providing all sorts of justifications, especially the "safety of the community", to sustain their assertions. So why, exactly, should anyone here, of all places, be expected to take seriously people telling us not to exercise any other civil right? Especially when it is police that tell us that?

Oh, that's right, it's because some day, we "might need a policeman". I've got a fair number of years on me now, and I can honestly say I've never once needed a cop. No doubt many of them are nice lads and lasses, don't get me wrong, but aside from giving me tickets for "speeding" and not wearing a seatbelt, I really don't interact with them in any way, shape or form. Which makes it all the more amusing to constantly hear that old refrain, about "Someday you'll need a cop". Now, a machinist, a UPS driver, a clerk at NAPA, Dillon customer support; those are occupations that have been damn useful to me. But I just can't imagine them ever telling me once that "Someday you'll need me", let alone telling me that over and over and over. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

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You should get around to changing that some day. I personally know about a half dozen cops, some are close friends, some just acquaintances. And they aren't saints, not by any stretch, but they aren't out to get you either. They're just regular guys (and a girl) with a job to do. Get to know a few of them and it might change your mindset a bit.

That said, their job is too important for us citizens to allow any of them to abuse the position, or allow politicians to use them for their own purposes. Getting back to the OP, if I get a knock on the door late at night (or any time) there's going to be a lot of explaining that needs to happen first before I'll open it. I'd probably call it in first to verify.

When I said I haven't interacted with any police, I meant in a professional sense. I was pretty good friends with two PG County cops, and know a retired one, and they're very nice people. Quite a few of my best friends back home are police; one is now a chief and one is a sheriff, and a few are county and state officers. As far as dealing with cops as private individuals, I have nothing against them at all.

But when it comes to dealing with one who is acting in a professional capacity, it is sheer madness to blindly trust that he has your best interests at heart. Just read the comments some have made here and in other threads. Their job is NOT to be your friend, or watch out for you, or take care of you.

Their job is to enforce laws and collect money, pure and simple. They might be nice and polite about it, and certainly most of the ones who have ticketed me for speeding or not wearing a seatbelt have been quite courteous as they collected their driving tax. I've only had three in MD who were rude and obnoxious to me, and one of those let me go with a warning, so it doesn't bother me at all if he wanted to shout and holler first. And I had one who was very polite, but a jackass.

Actually, the police have been much more well-mannered in this state than the gun store employees, in general. I'm not going to view all gun store employees with hostility, though, anymore than I would hate all police because of a few bad experiences.

Merlin said:

Yes I can see your point. But today people are more cleaver then ever and you should not take anything for face value if there is something about it that does mot make any sense.

Look at what we know;

• The LEO did not leave contact info. This is unheard of. Even if he was satisfied they always leave contact info.
• The ATF only said there are guys out there like that. But no one heard of this investigations. The ATF office in Baltimore is not very big.
• The local law did not know a thing about this investigation either. Now all LEO's do not know what all other LEO's are doing, but The upper management knows all that is going on.
• And yes, the range owner may have 10 reasons to play dumb when the OP called to ask about this AR, but for me when you add this into the everything else it stinks.

In this world there are pick pockets that can steel out of your pocket without you knowing, there are plenty of people that can get a form with your name on it even if it is behind the counter.

Maybe it's all OK. but I would recommend the OP grow eyes in the back of his head for awhile.

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I'm am quoting this to ensure that other members see your lack of any sort of knowledge on how the interworkings of police work is conducted. The management as you call it usually has little to no knowledge of what is actually going on in the street or any investigations for that matter, unless it is political in nature.

I'm also cautioning other members of this forum from taking any of your "legal" advice.

I really have no dog in this fight and could care less but I wanted to ensure members here were cautious in heeding any of your advice.

mpdc4511 said:

I'm also cautioning other members of this forum from taking any of your "legal" advice.

I really have no dog in this fight and could care less but I wanted to ensure members here were cautious in heeding any of your advice.

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Now you tell me.....

Well its been over a week and I haven't heard anything more about it.

mpdc4511 said:

I'm am quoting this to ensure that other members see your lack of any sort of knowledge on how the interworkings of police work is conducted. The management as you call it usually has little to no knowledge of what is actually going on in the street or any investigations for that matter, unless it is political in nature.

I'm also cautioning other members of this forum from taking any of your "legal" advice.

I really have no dog in this fight and could care less but I wanted to ensure members here were cautious in heeding any of your advice.

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Whatever. I'm surrounded by experts. I guess you didn't read the same things as I did. Also, and like anything else, some LEO's and departments are more professional then others.

Both are correct.


I have a close friend currently attending a local police training academy ... he said the department's training on MD gun law(s) is zero.

Christ now you guys have me wondering what the hell it was all about and if I'm gonna be piked up for something.

Anyone know a lawyer I can talk to?

Jackalope said:

Christ now you guys have me wondering what the hell it was all about and if I'm gonna be piked up for something.

Anyone know a lawyer I can talk to?

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Nothing to talk about yet as you haven't been charged with anything and lawyers are like psychologists, they'll happily charge you for every minute you think you need them. Right now, all that happened is you got a visit and few questions. If it happens again, your Spidey senses should start tingling and maybe you should get a legal opinion and limit your answers to the LEO. But most likely this is the last you will hear of it.

rob-cubed said:

Nothing to talk about yet as you haven't been charged with anything and lawyers are like psychologists, they'll happily charge you for every minute you think you need them. Right now, all that happened is you got a visit and few questions. If it happens again, your Spidey senses should start tingling and maybe you should get a legal opinion and limit your answers to the LEO. But most likely this is the last you will hear of it.

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God I hope so!

Merlin said:

Whatever. (1) I'm surrounded by experts. I guess you didn't read the same things as I did. Also, and like anything else, (2) some LEO's and departments are more professional then others.

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Yes, you seem to be in the company of experts all the time.

Second, what does that have to do with anything? Absolutely nothing.......