Family With Double-Action Trigger-Pull Problems

Mark K · Jul 25, 2014

I've got what seems like it would be an unusual and somewhat-embarrassing problem. None of the other members of the family can, for the life of them, pull a semi-auto handgun trigger back double-action (wife, 21-year-old daughter, 24-year-old son who's in the Air Force -- no jokes please!).

I've got a PPK-S, a Beretta 92 Compact, and a Sig P229. With each of the handguns, they can get the trigger back almost to the point where the hammer drops, but not quite -- and the longer they try, of course, the more fatigued they get.

Doesn't matter if the pull the trigger with the tip of the finger, or with the first joint.

Sometimes they'll cheat on the first round by using both index fingers. :rolleye12

Son is tall, wiry, and pretty strong otherwise -- getting so that he's stronger than me in most ways. No problem with Air Force PT (again, no jokes please). But his fingers are very long and slim; I attribute his problem to a lack of leverage. He did take a two-day combat handgun course with his Beretta 92FS in Nevada, where he's stationed; and was apparently able to go double-action from the holster without much problem. But I attribute that to adrenaline.

Anyone come across this problem? Any advice, other than cocking the hammer back first, or just working on trigger-finger strength?

lsw · Jul 25, 2014

Unless it's some kind of inherited muscle or joint problem, seems like they all could overcome it with some excercise. I knew a guy years ago who was born without a pectoral muscle on one side of his chest; maybe there could be similar traits involving the finger muscles or joints? Unless of course they forgot to take the safety off. (Sorry, couldn't resist

)

Skins_Brew · Jul 25, 2014

interesting indeed. I have no problem pulling a DA trigger hundreds of times but I always wondered why some police departments have a trigger pull test. I guess there is a portion of the population who has trouble.

I qualified in the navy on the M-9 (92FS) many times. When drawing from the holster you always have enough time to cock it. I always did because SA is way more accurate.

chompers · Jul 25, 2014

I have one of the red gripmasters on my desk at work. If i'm not typing or i'm bored i'm just use it a while. Might give that a shot.
http://smile.amazon.com/Gripmaster-...TF8&qid=1406340107&sr=8-4&keywords=gripmaster

photoracer · Jul 25, 2014

In most of the cases I have seen it is usually a case of improper leverage as in using the wrong muscles for the job at hand. Sometimes their grip is all wrong. Like pulling the slide back on a semi-auto. Also there are spring and trigger kits that can make it easier. For instance the Sig P229 you have has a really nice short trigger available from Sig for people that don't have long enough fingers. It is user installable because I did mine on the Sig P229 Sport competition gun I used to shoot. Leverage became better due to the angle change.
When in doubt get some grip exercisers for everyone or put lower power springs in the guns.

Brychan · Jul 25, 2014

Buy a tube of tennis balls, and pass them out to the family. When they are not busy they can squeeze the ball, like when watching tv this will build up hand strength. Or maybe take them to a handgun class, maybe a pro can see if there is a problem with their grip.

Blaster229 · Jul 25, 2014

A little unorthodox, but try the middle finger for the trigger finger. I know more than a handful of co worker professionals who have to. Either their index finger is too short or they have an issue. They shoot well and it's very natural. Give it a try.

Biggfoot44 · Jul 25, 2014

DA triggers use a specific set of muscles , not generally used in that combination. So individuals could be quite fit by normal standards , yet be DA trigger challenged.

Certainly have a knowledgable person double check their grip and finger placement , but I'd say 99% likely a finger srrength issue. There are a number of field expedient exercises that do at least some good , but the Gripmaster is by far the best. A "BLUE" Gripmaster would be the best to start them with. [ They have a bunch more marketed to physical therapists , but for mass market Blue = light Red = medimum , Black = heavy.]

-Z/28- · Jul 26, 2014

I see a simple solution...

Buy a 1911!

Skins_Brew said:
interesting indeed. I have no problem pulling a DA trigger hundreds of times but I always wondered why some police departments have a trigger pull test. I guess there is a portion of the population who has trouble.

Believe it or not, some people do struggle with these. I tested for an agency last fall that had such a test. They handed you an unloaded Glock 23 and you had to rack the slide and pull the trigger 10 times with each hand. A few folks seemed barely able to do it to my surprise.

clandestine · Jul 26, 2014

You need a LEM kit for the SIG.

Get rid of the PPK and Beretta and get a glock, ppq, or m&p.

Joshvictus · Jul 26, 2014

My fiance has the same issue with her M9. She actually has gotten pretty good at using two fingers to get the first double action pull off and is able to quickly adjust back to just one dominant hand finger.

-Z/28- said:
I see a simple solution...

Buy a 1911!

Believe it or not, some people do struggle with these. I tested for an agency last fall that had such a test. They handed you an unloaded Glock 23 and you had to rack the slide and pull the trigger 10 times with each hand. A few folks seemed barely able to do it to my surprise.

Carrying a full-sized berretta locked and cocked tis only but a wet dream

(unless there's a kit to drop the decock too, in which case someone needs to tell me).

I have a friend I've recently gotten into shooting who's probably 6ft tall, 180lbs and just can not rack the slide on a G19 or G17 to save his life. I guess these are all common problems.

Gryphon · Jul 26, 2014

I am not surprised about the ppk/s it has an awful da trigger. I am surprised about the 229 - it shouldn't be giving adults a problem. Try a springfield xdm. If that's still a problem install a powder river a precision ultimate trigger kit which will get it down to a smooth 4lbs with a crsip break and no over travel. If that doesn't work it is a lost cause

Pinecone · Jul 26, 2014

Just have them sit and dry fire while they watch TV.

The best way to build up the muscles is to use them.

Other things are a bandaid to the problem.

Mark K · Jul 26, 2014

Wow, thanks for all the replies. I guess the problem isn't quite as unusual as I'd thought.

Besides our son, my wife and daughter have long, slim fingers too. Maybe not quite as much as our son, but still. Wonder if that might be part of the problem. Using the tip of the index finger curls their fingers way too much (reducing leverage), and using the first joint makes it seem like they can't bend the finger far enough...

I've got kind of short fingers, and I've never had any problems with double-action. I don't have particularly great hand strength, either. (Anyone remember the horizontal ladder on the old Army PT test? I sucked at that...)

photoracer said:
For instance the Sig P229 you have has a really nice short trigger available from Sig for people that don't have long enough fingers.

My P229 is actually an M11A1, which I believe has a newer short-reset trigger. That's not what you're talking about, is it? That trigger wouldn't affect the DA pull, I don't think...

clandestine said:
Get rid of the PPK and Beretta and get a glock, ppq, or m&p.

I am not getting rid of my 1980s-vintage German- (OK, French-) made PPK/S or my somewhat-rare 92 Compact.

I've only shot a Glock once, but I rather like the DA/SA of my other handguns (plus my DoD agency uses M9s and M11s for deployments...).

Yeah, I think it's a hand-and finger-strength problem. They're not serious-enough shooters that they'd want to do specific exercises. Maybe it'll develop with some experience. I might have them try middle-finger or index-and-middle-finger pull, just to see...

Boom Boom · Jul 26, 2014

If you can, get one or more of the folks in question to try pulling the DA trigger on a S&W .38 J-frame (442 or 642). Take them to a local gun shop to try if needed. If they can pull that trigger, it's probably a finger length issue (meaning theirs are short). If not, probably a muscle issue.

Mark K · Jul 26, 2014

Boom Boom said:
If you can, get one or more of the folks in question to try pulling the DA trigger on a S&W .38 J-frame (442 or 642). Take them to a local gun shop to try if needed. If they can pull that trigger, it's probably a finger length issue (meaning theirs are short). If not, probably a muscle issue.

Well, we've rented S&W revolvers (.22LR and .38) at the range for at least some of these guys. I think they were J-frames. I don't remember any problems, but they may have been using them single-action.

Are you saying the trigger pulls of the Beretta and Sig are longer than the S&W? And the DA force is about the same?

Boom Boom · Jul 26, 2014

I'm saying J-frame snubbies have a heavy but smooth trigger pull with a short reach. If short reach works for them, the issue is most likely finger length and not trigger weight.

Blaster229 · Jul 26, 2014

Just out of curiosity, how slow are they trying to pull the trigger back to keep the pistol steady? There comes a point in the press where too slow is too long of time and the finger gets weaker the longer it takes.
Can they just take the pistol and pull the trigger quickly?

Bob A · Jul 26, 2014

My wife can't manage the trigger pull on a S&W M60, but no problem with a S&W M38 from the same time period. The 60 just happens to have a stiff DA trigger. I presume that could be adjusted by a competent gunsmith.

Mark K · Jul 26, 2014

Blaster229 said:
Just out of curiosity, how slow are they trying to pull the trigger back to keep the pistol steady? There comes a point in the press where too slow is too long of time and the finger gets weaker the longer it takes.
Can they just take the pistol and pull the trigger quickly?

Yeah, obviously the slower they pull the trigger, and the longer they try at a time, the more their fingers get tired and the harder it is.

On my advice, they've tried to just pull the trigger back hard on that first DA round, not worrying much about accuracy; and take their time with the subsequent SA rounds. Doesn't work.

Family With Double-Action Trigger-Pull Problems

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