ZQI overpressure ammo

I was at the range today test firing the 9mm 1911 I just built. The feedramp of this pistol was polished and relieved but not moved forward. I bought a box of the ZQI 9mm 123 grain NATO spec ammo I saw to see how the pistol liked it. I fired 25 rounds then picked up the brass. What you see was evident in varying degrees on very case. Most of the brass was as you see here. I kept a few cases and contacted both the merchant and ZQI about this.

Gun issues.

Agreed. The ammo is not the problem here.

Magnumite said:

just built.

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What exactly did you do, vs a gunsmith, vs how it came. That gun has an issue. I do not think this is ammo related. The gun is repeatedly firing partially unsupported cases.

Very good job on noticing this and keeping the brass. So many people never pay any attention to brass.

"What exactly did you do, vs a gunsmith, vs how it came"

I built this pistol, a 1911. No gunsmith required during the fitting of this pistol. It came to me in pieces over a couple of years time. It is fitted with the standard frame and barrel ramp, also known as an unsupported case. It is not a ramped barrel. FWIW, 40 and 10mm found like this is called "Glocked" brass.

Federal, Winchester, Remington ball factory loads and 50 handloads all fired normally in the same test session and were all normal in appearance and exhibited NONE of the pressure signs you see here. All the ammunition was rotated and fired on several targets to evaluate what the pistol liked and its function. This pistol is built with a very small radius square firing pin stop to lengthen barrel dwell time (keeps it locked longer). It is not lightly sprung now nor at the time of the range session. I must say it shoots this load pretty good...but obviously it is not worth it.

Also, an unsupported chamber does not cause primer leaks between the primer pockets and primer cup, pierced primers and blown out primers. It is a new barrel and there is some unsupported area but all I did was polish the barrel ramp and relieve the barrel ramp (throat) to chamber. Never had to move it forward.

Primers came out of two cases and primer pockets were elongated. Pierced primers were evident in 3 cases, several exhibited leaks around the primer cup. There were no ruptured cases. I understand NATO spec ammo is higher pressured but this seems very high. I did check my firearm for damage, eroded breechface and so on but there is no apparent damage noticed at this time. All those indicators are pressure issues. I've loaded too much heavy 44 Magnum not to recognize those indicators. And I never loaded to the primer falling out in that caliber anyway.

There are no 'tails' from firing pin swipe during unlocking so the pistol isn't unlocking prematurely. So this eliminates an out of battery condition allwing the primers to be blown out. Additionally, the cases are still straight, indicating it was in battery during the whole firing process.

During testing for whatever reason, a hard primer perhaps, and only with this ammo, two misfires were experienced. Looking at the primer there were two primer strikes both light. The recoil was stout, like a 45 I thought, figuring it was the loading and I had no experience with NATO spec ammo before this. So I am suspecting firing pin bounce on closing. The pistol does have a new, heavy firing pin spring in it, so that precludes a suspect firing pin. The misfires may well have been caused by the primer metal in the firing pin tunnel since there is evidence of primer extrusion from the excessive pressure. I haven't gotten to the firing pin check yet...busy day.

I'm squinting at 'blueberry screen , but what jumps out is how high on the case is the bulge ( aka insipient blow out ). Either : 1. Major unsuported case head from whatever casuation 2. Firing out of battery ( firing pin swipe is characteristic of early unlocking. OOB can also occur with premature hammer drop , before fully chambered). 3. Both.

Excessive headspace will most certainly cause primer to back out and blowout or leak gas. You pistol is firing out of battery like others have said. When a gun fires out of battery you have excessive headspace and when the firing pin hits the case it not only fires the round it pushes the round into the camber and for a brief nano you have excessive headspace ( pressure pushes bullet forward and primer backwards ) and the primer backs out of its pocket. Then the case expands and the bullet goes forward and the case is pushed backwards and the primer is pushed back into its pocket, unless the headspace is so great the primer gets completely blown out of its pocket. The pistol need to be checked by a gunsmith.

Brief nano...headspace is correct. Brief nano, why were all the other cases okay?

The SAAMI specs for 9mm/9mm+P call for a cylindrical chamber (in the area you are seing the bulge).

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/9mm Luger - 9mm Luger +P.pdf

Your primers are popping out because the unsupported case expands and deforms. This may not show up with lower powered loads.

Go to google image search and type in 'glocked brass' and you will see pictures of your brass in .40 .

I'll never run this ammo in my M&P 9 again. I bought a box for a range trip yesterday. After firing the 3rd round, the slide locked to the point that I had to use the side of a table to free the spent casing. I have never had this issue before with this gun. I inspected the brass and there was no visible buldge or cracks. I had fired less than 50 rounds since the last cleaning and had no issues after switching over to S&B and Silver Bear.

With the slide fully closed and the barrel locked up your pistol most likely has the correct headspace but When a pistol fires out of battery it has EXCESSIVE HEADSPACE. And your pistol is firing out of battery. With excessive headspace some of the cartridge is not in the chamber as it should be. And where the case is unsupported the case because the cartridge is not fully chambered the bulges or blows apart. A few thousands of a inch can and will make a difference in what happens to the fired case. Sometimes the case just bulges and the next round might blow out the primer and bulge the case and the next round might put the pistol in a few separate pieces. You have been lucky, Your pistol needs to see a doctor.

You also need to toss into this issue you are having, Is that you are shooting Nato 9mm ammo when you have problems. Sam pressure in most 9mm plinking ammo is around 35,000 psi and 115 grain bullet.
Now you are shooting a 124 grain bullet at just under 37,000 psi, nato specs.
That extra pressure can put a small unseen issue into the forefront very quickly.
Your ammos importers website has the specs for this ammo you are using.

I had similar problems in my FNS 9 last week.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13269-Turkish-ZQ1-9x19-ammunition-BUYER-BEWARE

Bad pistols.... all of you that are having issues. The thread owner's is really dangerous!

Intercooler said:

Bad pistols.... all of you that are having issues. The thread owner's is really dangerous!

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In my case, I would agree if it was a new gun but 3 years of ownership and thousands of rounds fired without issue.

Intercooler said:

Bad pistols.... all of you that are having issues. The thread owner's is really dangerous!

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I've fired this ammunition through three different, vetted handguns, and all of them exhibited issues with just ZQ1. In my case, it's not 4 bad handguns, or else I'd have to buy a lottery ticket with that kind of luck.

Could be in your cleaning process. Works great in mine!

OP, When you look at the last pic you posted you can see the bulge goes all the way around the case. That tells you the case was not fully chambered when it was fired. It also tells you how strong a 9mm case is.

Well, some great reading with morning coffee.

What I am reminded of is how many smart and experienced folks we have in our community.

This discussion is very illuminating and educational.

I appreciate the constant education and genuine knowledge sharing.

I had similar issues with an Uzi (not mine!) years ago...I don't recollect the ammo brand or specs. It was pretty alarming...not to mention dangerous. Wish I'd been associated with MDS then.

Combloc said:

Agreed. The ammo is not the problem here.

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Yep. Gun.