Proces for machine guns after Form 4 approval

Los · Oct 5, 2014

My dealer is new to this. Yesterday, three Form 4s for Machine Guns were approved:

1) a registered sear for a Norrell 10/22 (which included the gun, as part of the sale)

2) an M-16, with a 10" barrell

3) an American 180 with a barrell greater than 16"

Question: what else needs to be done after the Form 4 is approved? As I understand it:
- a 4473 must be filled out for all three to document the transfer.
- Within 24 hrs, I need to fill out MD's machine gun registration with the Sec. Of State and pay my $10
- does a 77r need to be submitted for any of the above? Note that one is a sear, one has a short barrel, and one has a long barrel.
- anything else?

Thanks in advance! If it matters, these were bought through a trust, but I believe in MD, individuals must own the gun as far as their paperwork.

bobthefisher · Oct 5, 2014

On the sear gun, which serial number is on the Form 4? Receiver or sear? Typically registered sears do not transfer with any barrel or overall length on the Form 4. However, if it's a registered receiver and the barrel is less then 16 inches, and manufactured post December 31st 1984 (i.e 1985 - present day), it will have to be submitted to the handgun roster before transfer. After approval from the handgun roster, a set of 77R forms will have to be filled out. I know it's stupid, but that's what we're dealing with at the moment. Everything else that does not have a barrel less then 16 inches, can be transfered with just a Federal 4473, and for machinguns a MSP Initial Machingun Registration form within 24hrs of acquisition by the transferee.

When was the M-16 manufactured?

forkauto · Oct 5, 2014

If the sear is in the gun, I believe a 77r is not needed even with a short barrell as a machine gun trumps other rules. A machine gun can have any barrell length. The sear is the machine gun so the host barrell does not matter until the sear is removed. I just got an HK51 with a Qualified sear and a 77r was not needed

Los · Oct 5, 2014

bobthefisher said:
On the sear gun, which serial number is on the Form 4? Receiver or sear?

The sear.

When was the M-16 manufactured?

I'm not sure, but I'll check.

I'm confused, though. On the one hand, some people say at if its a machine gun, then no 77R is needed and there's no barrel length test, because machine guns were not a part of SB281.

Los · Oct 5, 2014

Could I proceed as follows, since the Form 4s have been approved:

1) a registered sear for a Norrell 10/22 (which included the gun, as part of the sale)

TRANSFER WITHOUT A 77R, since it's a sear, and then transfer the gun separately?

2) an M-16, with a 10" barrel

HAVE THE DEALER PUT A 16" UPPER AND TRANSFER WITHOUT A 77R?

3) an American 180 with a barrell greater than 16"

TRANSFER WITHOUT A 77R?

forkauto · Oct 5, 2014

You can pick up everything in the guns as is with a 4473, short barrell ok for MG's. No 77r needed

bobthefisher · Oct 5, 2014

First I would like to state that I'm not a SOT / Class III dealer, so if anyone else has any options, then please chime-in for proper corrections.

1) Being a sear transfer, the serial number on the sear should be different then what's on the receiver. It's also customary, however not required, that the Form 4 have no overall / barrel length, and state "machinegun auto sear" under the description. That is not a requirement, it's just what has been done in the past to prevent confusion. The important part, being the serial number on the sear is different then the firearm receiver serial number. If that's the case, and the current Ruger 10/22 host has a barrel length less then 16 inches and was made post Dec. 31st 1984, simply swap out the barrel to 16 inches during transfer, and then configure however you want after the transfer.

2) It shouldn't be hard to research when the Colt was manufactured. There's a very good chance it was manufactured before 1985, thus making the handgun roster requirement null and void. However, if it was manufactured post Dec. 31st 1984, then have your dealer swap for a 16 inch barreled upper before transfer. It's of some contention whether you are REQUIRED to notify the ATF of the change in barrel and overall length before transfer, since it's a registered receiver transfer and not a registered sear transfer. I would recommend it, as it shouldn't take much time since it's an amendment to an already approved Form 4 transfer.

I might need some backup on that statement.

3) You're good-to-go on that transfer after a "proceed" from a typical Federal 4473 NICS check.

forkauto · Oct 6, 2014

As long as the sear reside in the gun it can have any size barrel. A machine gun trump all of the SBR crap MSP is throwing at us. A machinegun can have any size barrel. There is no 77R needed. Only a 4473 and pick up. Some AOW as well as SBR/SBS need to be on the roster depending on MFG date but machine guns are exempt from this. Also there is no need to amend a form1 or form 4 of a barrel change.

smokeybear · Oct 6, 2014

What would be the best way to determine the date of manufacture?

NateIU10 · Oct 6, 2014

forkauto said:
As long as the sear reside in the gun it can have any size barrel. A machine gun trump all of the SBR crap MSP is throwing at us. A machinegun can have any size barrel. There is no 77R needed. Only a 4473 and pick up. Some AOW as well as SBR/SBS need to be on the roster depending on MFG date but machine guns are exempt from this. Also there is no need to amend a form1 or form 4 of a barrel change.

Why? The public safety article states (n) (1) “Handgun” means a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length. Whether MSP would say a 77r is needed I am not sure, but it's not as cut and dry as you make it.

Los · Oct 6, 2014

OK guys. I know definitively the answer for the above three examples as I cleared them today, after checking with MSP and BATFE. To avoid any confusion, let me be clear about the facts:

My dealer had received the approved Form 4s for all three weapons to be transferred to me:
1) a registered machine gun sear, which was part of a Ruger 10/22 (which turned out was an SBR, unlike what I mentioned above). This was a John Norrell style full auto conversion.

2) an AR-15 converted to M-16, with a 10" barrel

3) an American 180 with a >16" barrel

In all three cases, no 77R was needed. The standard federal 4473 was filled out, my dealer called in the instant background check, and then I took home all three weapons (after test firing a couple of them, of course!) the same day. To be 100% clear about the process, if it's a machinegun or machine gun sear, it doesn't matter at all when it was made, how long the barrel is, etc. A machine gun "trumps" SBR and there is no 77R, no OAL requirement, no barrel length limit, no handgun registry - no nothing; if it's a machine gun, the length of the barrel and/or gun is a total non-issue. Period. This was straight from Corporal Edwards' mouth and I just cleared all three full-auto guns this way. Corporal Edwards did suggest this could change, but for now (Oct 2014) - that is 100% the case.

Thank you to everyone who contributed and helped. I sincerely hope this thread helps someone in the future, just as you folks here helped me, since this is a very confusing issue and the details matter.

forkauto · Oct 6, 2014

Amazing!

Abacab · Oct 6, 2014

Glad to see forkauto was right and that you got your stuff.

Los · Oct 6, 2014

Forkauto was spot-on, but I don't fault anyone who didn't get it right and I appreciate everyone's input. I'm not the smartest tack in the box, but I'm not a complete bumbling idiot. I read and read and read and... my head hurt; but, I still didn't understand what the @#$% was needed to clear an SBR full-auto. This crap is not simple and there's so much (mis)information out there that's conflicting, it's really hard to know what's right and what's wrong.

Now it's settled.

bobthefisher · Oct 7, 2014

Ha! Screw it then, good to hear. Nothing like hearing such words from MSP itself. Have fun with your new toys

smokeybear · Oct 7, 2014

Fantastic. Thank you for the information!

ducrider45 · Oct 7, 2014

This is great news. But it sucks that a few months ago MSP told me "no" on a MAC-11 MG based on OAL. Its good to hear that this is cleared up. Now if we can just get the new inspector at ATF on the same page......

rico903 · Oct 9, 2014

Thanks for the clarification on everything. And BTW, nice pick up on the Norrel 10/22. Not that easy to find.

Proces for machine guns after Form 4 approval

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Member

Durka ninja

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Member

Member

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Durka ninja

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Member

Ultimate Member

Member

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Member

Member

Durka ninja

Member

Active Member

Ultimate Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics