New commander at lic.division

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  • erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,886
    Rockville, MD
    that comes after its no longer in court.
    There is one specific decision in court, and I assume the lawsuit could be settled immediately if the licensing division changed their minds. There are any other number of (erroneous) interpretations that are not in court and causing myriad issues as well. By my count, there are at least 7 interpretation issues that need to be fixed.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,101
    There is one specific decision in court, and I assume the lawsuit could be settled immediately if the licensing division changed their minds. There are any other number of (erroneous) interpretations that are not in court and causing myriad issues as well. By my count, there are at least 7 interpretation issues that need to be fixed.

    Licensing division cannot change anything with regards to what is banned (former regulated long guns) based on the named list and based on the copycat law. Only the legislature can do that.

    As for regulated handguns, again, only the legislature can change the requirements.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,241
    Outside the Gates
    Licensing division cannot change anything with regards to what is banned (former regulated long guns) based on the named list and based on the copycat law. Only the legislature can do that.

    As for regulated handguns, again, only the legislature can change the requirements.

    I beleive they could clarify a few rifles on the margin ... whether or not "AK action" refers to rifles with the same piston/bolt configuration regardless of parts interchange or only those with more than one part that interchanges with other "AK action" rifles
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,886
    Rockville, MD
    I beleive they could clarify a few rifles on the margin ... whether or not "AK action" refers to rifles with the same piston/bolt configuration regardless of parts interchange or only those with more than one part that interchanges with other "AK action" rifles
    Precisely. They could also clarify a few of the pistols, too. Right now, they're banning stuff they have no legal justification for banning.
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,393
    Darlington MD
    all the erroneous and arbitrary classificiations are part of the argument that was submitted in the kolbe case.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,886
    Rockville, MD
    all the erroneous and arbitrary classificiations are part of the argument that was submitted in the kolbe case.
    The Kolbe case is a flat-out argument against the legislative AWB in MD. It is not specifically addressing those misinterpretations, nor does the case stand on them. They are ancillary evidence that the law is unclear and is being misinterpreted. I, and I suspect many other people and dealers, will be super-pissed if it's revealed that MSI's strategy is to not do anything about the misinterpretations because they supposedly help the (long-shot) case against the AWB.

    To give specifics about things the new commander could do right now that are 100% interpretation problems:
    1. Stop banning everything that says "Bushmaster" on it
    2. Stop banning the 22lr Uzi pistol and rifle (which have no parts commonality with the real Uzi pistol and rifle)
    3. Stop demanding 77rs on stripped AR-15 receivers (no legal justification whatsoever)
    4. Stop applying the copycat criteria to SBRs and SBSs (which would also settle the Engage lawsuit!)
    5. Clarify, for real, what constitutes a copy of an AR and AK.
    ... and there's more. Stop giving Hogan's guys a free pass - they are ****ing us RIGHT NOW, and there's plenty they could do to stop doing so that requires no legislative action.
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,393
    Darlington MD
    The Kolbe case is a flat-out argument against the legislative AWB in MD. It is not specifically addressing those misinterpretations, nor does the case stand on them. They are ancillary evidence that the law is unclear and is being misinterpreted. I, and I suspect many other people and dealers, will be super-pissed if it's revealed that MSI's strategy is to not do anything about the misinterpretations because they supposedly help the (long-shot) case against the AWB.

    To give specifics about things the new commander could do right now that are 100% interpretation problems:
    1. Stop banning everything that says "Bushmaster" on it
    2. Stop banning the 22lr Uzi pistol and rifle (which have no parts commonality with the real Uzi pistol and rifle)
    3. Stop demanding 77rs on stripped AR-15 receivers (no legal justification whatsoever)
    4. Stop applying the copycat criteria to SBRs and SBSs (which would also settle the Engage lawsuit!)
    5. Clarify, for real, what constitutes a copy of an AR and AK.
    ... and there's more. Stop giving Hogan's guys a free pass - they are ****ing us RIGHT NOW, and there's plenty they could do to stop doing so that requires no legislative action.

    I was under the impression engage was fighting both 3 & 4, and with regards to 4, changes may be coming to that on october 1st. we will see how msp interprets removing sbrvs from the purview of the roster board.

    With #5, do you have a better definition than looking similar and parts interchangability? ak-47 in all forms, and Kalashnikov rifles, and galil and valmet are all listed. its a pretty broad catagory.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,886
    Rockville, MD
    I was under the impression engage was fighting both 3 & 4
    Engage has a lawsuit on 4. Last I checked, they had not engaged in legal action on 3, but were rather telling the MSP to come and make them stop if they thought they could.

    and with regards to 4, changes may be coming to that on october 1st. we will see how msp interprets removing sbrvs from the purview of the roster board.
    The roster board definition only applies to the roster board section of the law. It has no direct impact on anything else. There is still private discussion about whether the change in law will be good or bad for us.

    With #5, do you have a better definition than looking similar and parts interchangability?
    Which "AK-47"? Which Avtomat Kalashnikov? Yugo AKs don't have 100% parts commonality with the Russian-derived versions, for example. What about the VEPR 54R, PSL, and similar scaled up guns? What about blowback pistol caliber and rimfire AKs? Hell, what about something like the PAR-3?

    I don't need to give a better definition. The MSP does. And when they do give that definition, it needs to be crystal clear. Currently, it appears they're not even following the AG letter which demands 100% parts interchangeability.

    ak-47 in all forms, and Kalashnikov rifles, and galil and valmet are all listed. its a pretty broad catagory.
    It is indeed broad. But broad is not the same as all-inclusive, as we've seen with the AR-15-derived guns.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,241
    Outside the Gates
    With #5, do you have a better definition than looking similar and parts interchangability? ak-47 in all forms, and Kalashnikov rifles, and galil and valmet are all listed. its a pretty broad catagory.

    Is a single interchangeable part enough to make every rifle an AK?
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,393
    Darlington MD
    Engage has a lawsuit on 4. Last I checked, they had not engaged in legal action on 3, but were rather telling the MSP to come and make them stop if they thought they could.


    The roster board definition only applies to the roster board section of the law. It has no direct impact on anything else. There is still private discussion about whether the change in law will be good or bad for us.


    Which "AK-47"? Which Avtomat Kalashnikov? Yugo AKs don't have 100% parts commonality with the Russian-derived versions, for example. What about the VEPR 54R, PSL, and similar scaled up guns? What about blowback pistol caliber and rimfire AKs? Hell, what about something like the PAR-3?

    I don't need to give a better definition. The MSP does. And when they do give that definition, it needs to be crystal clear. Currently, it appears they're not even following the AG letter which demands 100% parts interchangeability.


    It is indeed broad. But broad is not the same as all-inclusive, as we've seen with the AR-15-derived guns.

    all good points wrt ak's and Kalashnikov's. do you know of any of those variants, pistol blow back or pump that have been submitted to msp for evaluation? id think the scaled up versions like the psl and veprs would just fall under the kalasnikov, since its the same operating system (and receiver with the vepr).
    as far as i know the rimfires are good to go.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,886
    Rockville, MD
    do you know of any of those variants, pistol blow back or pump that have been submitted to msp for evaluation?
    No idea. The whole idea that I have to submit rifles and shotguns for "evaluation" is completely bankrupt from a legal sense. The MSP needs to issue firm, consistent guidelines, and let me make the call. Risking hundreds or thousands of dollars of my own money on a purchase that they might arbitrarily deny? Screw that.

    id think the scaled up versions like the psl and veprs would just fall under the kalasnikov, since its the same operating system (and receiver with the vepr).
    Where in the law does an AK get defined by its operating system? Is every gun with a piston and a spring behind the BCG now an AK?

    as far as i know the rimfires are good to go.
    I'm referencing the WASR-22 and M10-22 here, not the cosmetic lookalikes made by RIA and GSG. The WASR-22 shares a receiver with the real-deal AKs, IIRC.
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,393
    Darlington MD
    No idea. The whole idea that I have to submit rifles and shotguns for "evaluation" is completely bankrupt from a legal sense. The MSP needs to issue firm, consistent guidelines, and let me make the call. Risking hundreds or thousands of dollars of my own money on a purchase that they might arbitrarily deny? Screw that.


    Where in the law does an AK get defined by its operating system? Is every gun with a piston and a spring behind the BCG now an AK?


    I'm referencing the WASR-22 and M10-22 here, not the cosmetic lookalikes made by RIA and GSG. The WASR-22 shares a receiver with the real-deal AKs, IIRC.

    I dont think you have to physically purchase and submit a rifle. msp's position on the website was first ask your dealer, then ask msp. i dont think they need to have the rifle in hand to make an evaluation.

    i dont think its possible to make firm consistant guidline from a law that is drafted from a jumble of recycled garbage.

    what could be less restrictive than "if a dealer says its ok, then its ok"?
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    No manufacturer in their right mind would intentionally make and sell a 'defective' firearm. Every now and there is a problem, most infamously and recently was virtually the entire XDs line of pistols. Which Springfield Armory handled in a professional manner and in short order (fast).

    My view is that there should not be an 'approved' list of handguns, or any category of guns at all. One gun is not more 'lethal' than another, all this fuss over this model, or that heavy barrel, etc. is a waste of time and money. I feel at this time we would be better served by having a competent division that is keeping track of these things and in the rare circumstances that a particular problem exists, helping to get it addressed properly and quickly. And where no remedy seems immediately available, then and only then have a gun 'banned' or maybe better put, suspended from sale; and let the dealers know about the issue. Every dealer in Maryland that I've spoken with (most if not all by now), have been very accommodating, and reasonable folks; and if they are like me they respond better to helpful/useful information and advice rather than threat of penalties or worse. The dealers can speak for themselves, but from what (little) I hear, I think right now we have a pretty good relationship between dealers and state officials.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,886
    Rockville, MD
    I dont think you have to physically purchase and submit a rifle. msp's position on the website was first ask your dealer, then ask msp. i dont think they need to have the rifle in hand to make an evaluation.
    In that case, the entire thing is even more of a sham then, because without a gun in hand, they have no real way to determine whether gun has 100% parts compatibility. This is the way we got "banned" C308s.

    Stop making excuses for them. They are doing terrible work. I am calling them out for it, and you should, too.

    i dont think its possible to make firm consistant guidline from a law that is drafted from a jumble of recycled garbage.
    It's possible. They simply haven't done it. I could do it in a week's time, if not less.

    what could be less restrictive than "if a dealer says its ok, then its ok"?
    Is that the official policy statement of the MSP? Are they going to not prosecute anyone, including the dealer, if a dealer accidentally sells me a PTR-91? The way the law is written, you are exposed if your dealer screws up. Think about that. Your dealer makes a mistake, you could go to jail. You don't want to leave things to chance, or your dealer's discretion.

    The dealers can speak for themselves, but from what (little) I hear, I think right now we have a pretty good relationship between dealers and state officials.
    I have no idea who you're talking to. The last dealer I talked to told me it was worse now. The one before that was similarly unimpressed. I'd be shocked if you could find ANY dealer who thinks what you just wrote.
     

    Applehd

    Throbbing Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 26, 2012
    5,289
    Here's a novel idea... eliminate the f..king Handgun Roster Board... Ok... mindless rambling over.:o


    Ooops... Fixed... sleepy... and fading fast.
     

    Applehd

    Throbbing Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 26, 2012
    5,289
    Fixed previous post... I am back to work and trying to get back in the groove... it's tough learning night work again...
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,393
    Darlington MD
    In that case, the entire thing is even more of a sham then, because without a gun in hand, they have no real way to determine whether gun has 100% parts compatibility. This is the way we got "banned" C308s.

    Stop making excuses for them. They are doing terrible work. I am calling them out for it, and you should, too.


    It's possible. They simply haven't done it. I could do it in a week's time, if not less.


    Is that the official policy statement of the MSP? Are they going to not prosecute anyone, including the dealer, if a dealer accidentally sells me a PTR-91? The way the law is written, you are exposed if your dealer screws up. Think about that. Your dealer makes a mistake, you could go to jail. You don't want to leave things to chance, or your dealer's discretion.


    I have no idea who you're talking to. The last dealer I talked to told me it was worse now. The one before that was similarly unimpressed. I'd be shocked if you could find ANY dealer who thinks what you just wrote.

    Im not making excuses for them. And im certainly not arguing with you. I'm just trying to see what you're seeing. 22lr ak's never cross my mind, not something im interested in. There are a few firearms i do have problems with, in regards to that list. like any ar labeled a hbar is ok, what what about rifles labeled "sporter"? why does everyone pretend that word doesnt exist? everythings labeled sporter, sport, or sporting, should have the same exemption. Right?

    I have a whole list of stuff i want to send up the hill to see what happens, but with a Kolbe decision expected any day... and having been expected since mid march... is this what we want to spend our time on, and what we want the LD spending their time on? Especially given the nature of the commander up until last week?
     

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