AR-15 SBR n00b questions

Biggfoot44 · Jul 11, 2013

Yes , that is "Manufacturing" . No , it is not yet clear Md's intentions as regards various NFA items involving actions potentially related to firearms that would be banned in semi-auto Rifle configuration.

To be greatest degree of CYA in this situation , hand the lower/ donor firearm to your friendly neighborhood 007/SOT . In that case the "Manufacturing Date" is when they submit the (Form 2 ? ) . When the item subsequently come to you on a Form 4 , it is a Transfer , not permission to Manf . The Engraving will then be "Billy Bob's Machine Guns & Frisbies Inc " rather than " Your Name, Your Town".

Kingjamez · Jul 11, 2013

Biggfoot44 said:
Yes , that is "Manufacturing"

Turning an existing firearm into a NFA firearm is NOT manufacturing, it's making.

As said above, the definition of make can include manufacturing, but doesn't have to. It's kind of like all squares are parallelograms, but not all parallelograms are squares.

-Jim

Biggfoot44 · Jul 12, 2013

Opps , simultanious typing.

But still much the same points. You are "creating" a firearm. We still have no idea how MSP will wish to regulate such topics . MSP probably has no idea yet how they will aproach such topics. Nobody has any idea if MSP's desires would conflict with Federal regulations.

It remains the most ( cautous , conservitive , self protecting ) to have an SOT run your parts thru their book to establish an unequivocable pre Oct "Born On Date" , and then transfer to you on Form 4 , than for you to have a potential Md Regulation issue pop up while you are waiting on your Form 1 to be approved.

USAFRavenR6 · Jul 12, 2013

erwos said:
You should read what that form 1 is: permission to manufacture. You are manufacturing. It really is that simple, and playing this semantics game isn't going to impress the ATF or the MSP.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD

Your time of the month? Its assembling and regardless, I have the upper and lower and guess what, once I get the stamp (pre or post Oct 1) I am going to "assemble them". Again, no where on form 1 does it say that you are manufacturing a firearm, it says "making". It wants to know the original manufacturer of the lower as well as defining in section i, " If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a." Again, manufacturer is defined in section b as, "Registration by Qualified Manufacturer. A person who has a Federal firearms license to manufacture firearms (Type 07 or 10) and who has paid special (occupational) tax to manufacture NFA firearms is exempt from the making tax and filing of the ATF Form 1 application. Such qualified manufacturer must report and register each NFA firearm manufactured by filing ATF Form 2, Notice of Firearms Manufactured or Imported, as required by 27 CFR § 479.102." Meaning that I, who is not someone who possesses a Federal firearms license to manufacture a firearm fills out form 1 opposed to form 2, as all manufacturers fill out. Thanks for your worthless input though

USAFRavenR6 · Jul 12, 2013

Biggfoot44 said:
Opps , simultanious typing.

But still much the same points. You are "creating" a firearm. We still have no idea how MSP will wish to regulate such topics . MSP probably has no idea yet how they will aproach such topics. Nobody has any idea if MSP's desires would conflict with Federal regulations.

It remains the most ( cautous , conservitive , self protecting ) to have an SOT run your parts thru their book to establish an unequivocable pre Oct "Born On Date" , and then transfer to you on Form 4 , than for you to have a potential Md Regulation issue pop up while you are waiting on your Form 1 to be approved.

The MSP have nothing to do with my form 1 being approved or will they be notified. This is between myself and the feds. I already possess all components to assemble and am merely waiting on the stamp. its not like a magical fairy is going to tip off the MSP that I built a SBR post Oct 1. please, they cant even clear a background check in 100 days, what makes you think they have any insight into what people are assembling?

erwos · Jul 12, 2013

Make. The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA) , putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a fiream.

All I can say is this: I wouldn't want to be in front of a Maryland judge trying to argue that I was "making" and not "manufacturing" a firearm after 10/1. Does Maryland law define manufacturing such that making doesn't fall under it? And the difference is semi-irrelevant anyways, given that there's also a ban on possession post-10/1. Whether you "make" or "manufacture" it into existence after that is basically irrelevant.

Why this matters if you're using a trust is simple: the MSP can get your NFA form real easy from the NFA branch if they ever come after you. And if that form is post-10/1, they've now potentially got something to hang over your head.

IMBLITZVT · Jul 12, 2013

Boy, this sure has turned into an argument over pretty small details.

Simple fact is that in MD post Oct 1, it will not matter if you take a Registered gun and SBR it. SBRs are not banned under the new law. The real question comes if you want to take an SBR and turn it back into a rifle... now that might not be allowed.

USAFRavenR6 · Jul 12, 2013

erwos said:
All I can say is this: I wouldn't want to be in front of a Maryland judge trying to argue that I was "making" and not "manufacturing" a firearm after 10/1. Does Maryland law define manufacturing such that making doesn't fall under it? And the difference is semi-irrelevant anyways, given that there's also a ban on possession post-10/1. Whether you "make" or "manufacture" it into existence after that is basically irrelevant.

Why this matters if you're using a trust is simple: the MSP can get your NFA form real easy from the NFA branch if they ever come after you. And if that form is post-10/1, they've now potentially got something to hang over your head.

What is banned from possession? I dont think you fully understand what 281 is. I already possess the stripped lower, its mine in my safe. Form one is registering that lower as a SBR and paying a tax. I have already posted what form 1 reads for instructions and it is clear, I am not manufacturing anything. I feel like I am at the nerd table at lunch in high school arguing over magic the gathering cards............

erwos · Jul 12, 2013

I'm not arguing with someone who apparently needs to punctuate all of his arguments with personal attacks, never mind accusing the guy who wrote the SB281 FAQ of not knowing what's in SB281. Believe whatever you want.

USAFRavenR6 · Jul 12, 2013

erwos said:
I'm not arguing with someone who apparently needs to punctuate all of his arguments with personal attacks, never mind accusing the guy who wrote the SB281 FAQ of not knowing what's in SB281. Believe whatever you want.

I didn't attack you, I said I felt like I was in an argument with someone playing magic the gathering. If you are referring to the time of the month comment im sorry, I was drinking last night when i posted it up.

So you wrote the FAQ, how do you know they are accurate and you are not informing the people of this board? I'm not saying you are but I think there are alot of unknowns out there and cant take a FAQ as gospel at this point.

240 towles · Jul 12, 2013

Kingjamez said:
Not wholly true. Suppressors don't need a 5320.20 to cross state lines.

-Jim

a suppressor is not a weapon, its an item.

Kingjamez · Jul 12, 2013

240 towles said:
a suppressor is not a weapon, its an item.

Definition of Firearm when dealing with NFA law:

c. Firearm. The term “firearm” means: (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 5845(e); (6) a machinegun; (7) a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (8) a destructive device.

-Jim

240 towles · Jul 13, 2013

Kingjamez said:
Definition of Firearm when dealing with NFA law:

-Jim

touch'e

ews25 · Jul 22, 2013

So I'm an SBR noob too. I want to get one lined up before 10/1. If I start with a stripped lower, what is the process? A complete lower? What if I want to just buy one off the shelf through a local dealer or gunbroker?

swinokur · Jul 22, 2013

IIRC if you have the components to make an SBR, you have in fact "made" the weapon. I would store the upper some where else until your tax stamp comes back from BATFE.

BradMacc82 · Jul 22, 2013

swinokur said:
IIRC if you have the components to make an SBR, you have in fact "made" the weapon. I would store the upper some where else until your tax stamp comes back from BATFE.

Constructive Possession, IIRC.

I have my 12.2" upper stored in a safe at another location until my stamp comes in. Just to play it safe.

Hopalong · Jul 22, 2013

swinokur said:
I thought it is now marked OTHER

OTHER is how a stripped lower is marked with regard to RIFLE, HANDGUN, or OTHER. It's not a caliber marking.

swinokur · Jul 22, 2013

The form says other. The lower says MULTI

JPG · Sep 27, 2013

swinokur said:
IIRC if you have the components to make an SBR, you have in fact "made" the weapon. I would store the upper some where else until your tax stamp comes back from BATFE.

I am getting ready to build my first SBR and this is confusing me.

How do I know what the OVERALL length will be if I can't have the parts until I get the stamp?

I am building a 300 with a barral length of 10 - 10.5, haven't decided yet (depending on manufacture) - will be suppressed.

swinokur · Sep 27, 2013

I can't give you good legal advice on that. sorry. You could measure them separately from a reference mark on one of them I suppose.

AR-15 SBR n00b questions

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