Firearm Inheritance

swinokur · Aug 17, 2014

I stand corrected-again.

Blaster229 · Aug 17, 2014

swinokur said:
I stand corrected-again.

YANAL

Blaster229 · Aug 17, 2014

I wonder how many lawyers recommend the first rule of fight club?

swinokur · Aug 17, 2014

And I can't read well either apparently.

:lol2:

Pinecone · Aug 17, 2014

SneakySh0rty said:
What if he, before Oct 1st, completed the ARs into pistols, then into (now considered banned) rifles?

My mom has my Dad's lawyer handling the will and I assume the dispersal of assets.

AFAIK, if he had built them into a banned configuration before Oct 1, they are a banned firearm and could be made back into one. If he had made them into a pistol, then into a rifle, then you could make them into a rifle or pistol. But I would want some sort of proof that this had been done.

You need to talk to a 2A knowledgeable attorney about this.

Your current attorney, can likely, as the representative of the Estate, transfer the firearms to you, through the MSP. Or possibly through a dealer.

But I think inheritance transfers through MSP are free, IIRC.

cantstop · Aug 17, 2014

SneakySh0rty said:
My mom has my Dad's lawyer handling the will and I assume the dispersal of assets.

I ANAL. I love that acronym

. Unless the will says you get the guns, since MD is a community property state, they are your mom's property. You will need to transfer via MSP. I'm guessing you are out of luck with the AR-15, although your mom can probably loan it to you.

Get a 2A lawyer involved if you really want these.

Mooseman · Aug 17, 2014

I am sorry for your loss. Good luck with the firearm issue.

outrider58 · Aug 17, 2014

JettaRed said:
I would call the Licensing Division of the MSP and ask them about inheriting banned firearms.

Do it from a pay phone.

Mooseman · Aug 17, 2014

outrider58 said:
Do it from a pay phone.

Do they still have pay phones?

Alphabrew · Aug 17, 2014

Blaster229 said:
I wonder how many lawyers recommend the first rule of fight club?

IANAL but, ^THIS

Sorry for your loss, OP. Not a day goes by that I don't still think about my dad.

Jason21237 · Aug 17, 2014

Im not a lawyer but my recommendation is SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. There are some things people don't need to know.

Streetgang · Aug 17, 2014

Pinecone said:
AFAIK, if he had built them into a banned configuration before Oct 1, they are a banned firearm and could be made back into one. If he had made them into a pistol, then into a rifle, then you could make them into a rifle or pistol. But I would want some sort of proof that this had been done.

You need to talk to a 2A knowledgeable attorney about this.

Your current attorney, can likely, as the representative of the Estate, transfer the firearms to you, through the MSP. Or possibly through a dealer.

But I think inheritance transfers through MSP are free, IIRC.

This is correct.

fabsroman · Aug 17, 2014

Brooklyn said:
[/B]

IANAL . Ask a lawyer not MSP. My bet no. My bet MSP will say no. But if there is a way only your lawyer, under privilege and working with the estate and perhaps a trust, can make it happen.

I still do not think it can work after his passing.

Condolences on your loss, and remember--- if you ever leave MD and never return the status of the lowers is not an issue, just don't get cute and get in jam -- its not worth it.

OP - I am very, very, very sorry to hear about your dad passing and I am glad that you are alright along the way to healing the hole left in your life.

Regarding your issues, if the items your dad possessed are now considered banned items, you can inherit them as is. If it was an HBAR, then it would have to remain an HBAR because he did not possess a banned configuration that would have been grandfathered in. The HBAR could have been sold to him cash and carry without a Form 77r.

A trust will not work for non NFA items because the trust cannot own the firearm if it is not an NFA item.

Trust me, even though the will does not mention the firearms specifically, I am sure there is a residuary clause that catches any remainder of the estate that has not been specifically bequested prior to the residuary clause. Normally, the firearms would be sold and the proceeds would go to the beneficiary of the residuary clause.

Actually, there is a lot to discuss on this matter. First, creditors get paid, and assets of the estate get sold to satisfy and debts the decedent owed. Then, if items still remain in the estate to satisfy specific bequests, the specific bequests are carried out. Then, if there is anything left, it goes via the residuary clause.

This is how the residuary clause in my will starts. I will not put you to sleep with all the trust provisions for the children. The names have been changed to protect the unknowing:

7.01 My residuary estate shall consist of (a) all property or interests not otherwise effectively disposed of in this Will, of whatever kind, nature or description, and wherever located, including any property to which I shall be in any way entitled to at the time of my death, any and all property over which I may have a power of appointment and any insurance proceeds that may be payable to my estate, less (b) all valid claims asserted against my estate and all expenses incurred in administering my estate, including expenses of administering nonprobate assets.

SECTION 8. DEVISE AND BEQUEST OF RESIDUARY ESTATE.

8.01 I give, devise and bequeath my residuary estate to my wife, Mrs. FabsRoman, if she survives me.

8.02 If my wife, Mrs. FabsRoman, does not survive me, or if my wife, Mrs. FabsRoman, survives me and renounces or disclaims all or any portion of my estate, then I hereby direct my Personal Representative to divide my residuary estate, or that portion of my estate so renounced or disclaimed, among my living descendants, per stirpes. I give each share provided in the immediately preceding sentence for each then-living descendant of mine to the Trustee, heretofore named, and its successor or successors, to hold the same in trust, as separate trusts for the benefit of any such descendant, with the powers and for the uses and purposes, to be administered and disposed of as hereinafter set forth.

The devise of the residuary state could be a lot simpler too without any trust provisions.

Might be tough for you to inherit the banned firearms if you are not a beneficiary of the residuary estate, since they are not specifically left to you prior to the distribution of the residuary estate.

fabsroman · Aug 18, 2014

SneakySh0rty said:
What if he, before Oct 1st, completed the ARs into pistols, then into (now considered banned) rifles?

My mom has my Dad's lawyer handling the will and I assume the dispersal of assets.

Like I said, already have a lawyer. Posed my question about the firearms to my mother and she asked him. His response was that none of the firearms are listed in the will and that I should contact MSP instead. Yes, I understand that I didn't possess the firearms. That is not the issue. The question I have is whether or not they retain being grandfathered. Meaning, any barrel profile is fine.

from COMAR:

I am not asking for legal advice. I am asking for guidance in handling this situation. My goal was to gain enough knowledge to properly formulate my questions to the lawyer or MSP. Since I have no experience in this, I wanted a starting point to begin my own research.

Actually, you are asking legal advice. What you are asking for is an interpretation of SB281, which is a law. You are asking for advice on a law.

Tell the attorney handling this matter for you to look as SB281 from 2013, or what is now known as the Firearm Safety Act of 2013. It is mostly codified in Crim Code and the Public Safety Code under firearms.

I'll help you a little more. Crim Law section 4-302(5). Have your attorney start there. Your attorney should really be able to do all this research for you.

The real question is going to be whether you are entitled to inherit them through the estate.

fabsroman · Aug 18, 2014

Jason21237 said:
Im not a lawyer but my recommendation is SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. There are some things people don't need to know.

Yes, and no. There are some regulated firearms in that list that the MSP would most likely have a Form 77r on. If the OP ever gets checked on the regulated firearms, whether in a traffic stop for some reason or at the range, and they do not come back in his name, then there is going to be a lot of questions. Trust me, MSP knows who the regulated firearms are registered to based upon the Form 77r. I have recently heard of a couple being called in to confirm that the person in possession of them was indeed the registered owner.

Now, should the OP be on a chatboard asking about all this stuff. NOPE. Behind closed doors with an attorney would probably be the best course of action.

Keep in mind that even if his father had gifted the firearms to him before dying, a Form 77r would have needed to be completed for the regulated firearms.

SneakySh0rty · Aug 18, 2014

fabsroman said:
OP - I am very, very, very sorry to hear about your dad passing and I am glad that you are alright along the way to healing the hole left in your life.

Regarding your issues, if the items your dad possessed are now considered banned items, you can inherit them as is. If it was an HBAR, then it would have to remain an HBAR because he did not possess a banned configuration that would have been grandfathered in. The HBAR could have been sold to him cash and carry without a Form 77r.

A trust will not work for non NFA items because the trust cannot own the firearm if it is not an NFA item.

Trust me, even though the will does not mention the firearms specifically, I am sure there is a residuary clause that catches any remainder of the estate that has not been specifically bequested prior to the residuary clause. Normally, the firearms would be sold and the proceeds would go to the beneficiary of the residuary clause.

Actually, there is a lot to discuss on this matter. First, creditors get paid, and assets of the estate get sold to satisfy and debts the decedent owed. Then, if items still remain in the estate to satisfy specific bequests, the specific bequests are carried out. Then, if there is anything left, it goes via the residuary clause.

This is how the residuary clause in my will starts. I will not put you to sleep with all the trust provisions for the children. The names have been changed to protect the unknowing:

7.01 My residuary estate shall consist of (a) all property or interests not otherwise effectively disposed of in this Will, of whatever kind, nature or description, and wherever located, including any property to which I shall be in any way entitled to at the time of my death, any and all property over which I may have a power of appointment and any insurance proceeds that may be payable to my estate, less (b) all valid claims asserted against my estate and all expenses incurred in administering my estate, including expenses of administering nonprobate assets.

SECTION 8. DEVISE AND BEQUEST OF RESIDUARY ESTATE.

8.01 I give, devise and bequeath my residuary estate to my wife, Mrs. FabsRoman, if she survives me.

8.02 If my wife, Mrs. FabsRoman, does not survive me, or if my wife, Mrs. FabsRoman, survives me and renounces or disclaims all or any portion of my estate, then I hereby direct my Personal Representative to divide my residuary estate, or that portion of my estate so renounced or disclaimed, among my living descendants, per stirpes. I give each share provided in the immediately preceding sentence for each then-living descendant of mine to the Trustee, heretofore named, and its successor or successors, to hold the same in trust, as separate trusts for the benefit of any such descendant, with the powers and for the uses and purposes, to be administered and disposed of as hereinafter set forth.

The devise of the residuary state could be a lot simpler too without any trust provisions.

Might be tough for you to inherit the banned firearms if you are not a beneficiary of the residuary estate, since they are not specifically left to you prior to the distribution of the residuary estate.

fabsroman said:
Actually, you are asking legal advice. What you are asking for is an interpretation of SB281, which is a law. You are asking for advice on a law.

Tell the attorney handling this matter for you to look as SB281 from 2013, or what is now known as the Firearm Safety Act of 2013. It is mostly codified in Crim Code and the Public Safety Code under firearms.

I'll help you a little more. Crim Law section 4-302(5). Have your attorney start there. Your attorney should really be able to do all this research for you.

The real question is going to be whether you are entitled to inherit them through the estate.

When he purchased the black rain lower it was a stripped lower. Before Oct 1st he built it as a pistol, then configured it into a rifle. That way he could go back to pistol if he wanted to. The upper he used was a Noveske Rogue Hunter. It was neither marked nor advertised as an HBAR and the advertisement even states "lightweight contour". So under current definition it wouldnt be considered an HBAR right? Even though there is no m203 cut nor does it really seem to "slim" under the handguard.

Thanks for this detailed information. I never knew the inner workings of a will or estate handling. I think if any debts are present they will be satisfied without selling off things. But, you raise an interesting point about the firearms not being specifically left to me. Once my mother finds the copy of the will or whenever we have a sitdown with the lawyer I guess Ill find out how to proceed from there. My initial intention wasn't to get an interpretations of SB281. I wanted to be prepared to ask appropriate/relevant questions to the lawyer or MSP. Pinecone raised questions/comments that made think about other things as well. That's why I started asking those other questions.

Thanks for the Criminal Law Section part. I read that before but couldnt find the link again. So I just quoted the one from here: https://www.mdsp.org/Portals/0/Downloads/COMAR/29.03.01 Regulated Firearms (9-11-13).pdf

In all honesty I dont even care about the ARs or if they can be only built into pistols/hbars. I already have my own ARs configured how I like them. My main concern was the Dan Wesson revolver. Holds more sentimental value to me than having additional ARs or any other of my dads firearms.

fabsroman · Aug 18, 2014

SneakySh0rty said:
When he purchased the black rain lower it was a stripped lower. Before Oct 1st he built it as a pistol, then configured it into a rifle. That way he could go back to pistol if he wanted to. The upper he used was a Noveske Rogue Hunter. It was neither marked nor advertised as an HBAR and the advertisement even states "lightweight contour". So under current definition it wouldnt be considered an HBAR right? Even though there is no m203 cut nor does it really seem to "slim" under the handguard.

Thanks for this detailed information. I never knew the inner workings of a will or estate handling. I think if any debts are present they will be satisfied without selling off things. But, you raise an interesting point about the firearms not being specifically left to me. Once my mother finds the copy of the will or whenever we have a sitdown with the lawyer I guess Ill find out how to proceed from there. My initial intention wasn't to get an interpretations of SB281. I wanted to be prepared to ask appropriate/relevant questions to the lawyer or MSP. Pinecone raised questions/comments that made think about other things as well. That's why I started asking those other questions.

Thanks for the Criminal Law Section part. I read that before but couldnt find the link again. So I just quoted the one from here: https://www.mdsp.org/Portals/0/Downloads/COMAR/29.03.01 Regulated Firearms (9-11-13).pdf

In all honesty I dont even care about the ARs or if they can be only built into pistols/hbars. I already have my own ARs configured how I like them. My main concern was the Dan Wesson revolver. Holds more sentimental value to me than having additional ARs or any other of my dads firearms.

If you are only worried about that revolver and it is not one of the banned assault pistols (forgive my ignorance, but I don't know much about all the handguns out there and I am too tired to check the assault pistol list. I would assume that a revolver is not on the list, but you know what they say about assuming) and there is any squable from anybody about it going to you, just offer to buy it from the estate at fair market value and have the estate/personal representative transfer it to you. You would need your HQL and the help of MSP or an FFL, but you should be able to get that handgun one way or another.

SneakySh0rty · Aug 18, 2014

fabsroman said:
If you are only worried about that revolver and it is not one of the banned assault pistols (forgive my ignorance, but I don't know much about all the handguns out there and I am too tired to check the assault pistol list. I would assume that a revolver is not on the list, but you know what they say about assuming) and there is any squable from anybody about it going to you, just offer to buy it from the estate at fair market value and have the estate/personal representative transfer it to you. You would need your HQL and the help of MSP or an FFL, but you should be able to get that handgun one way or another.

Not on the assault pistol list, so good to go. 100% sure I wont have any complaints from my sisters or mother about the revolver (or any of the firearms). It was the first handgun I learned to shoot when I was younger. I have my HQL and have DC status. So im set for any number of handguns or regulated firearms.

fabsroman · Aug 18, 2014

SneakySh0rty said:
Not on the assault pistol list, so good to go. 100% sure I wont have any complaints from my sisters or mother about the revolver (or any of the firearms). It was the first handgun I learned to shoot when I was younger. I have my HQL and have DC status. So im set for any number of handguns or regulated firearms.

If everybody is good with the guns going to you, then there should be no problem regarding the non-banned items because whoever is the beneficiary under the residuary clause, she could gift them to you. If you happen to be a partial beneficiary under the residuary clause, then you can take the handguns, might even be able to take the banned assault weapons too. Thing is, showing that you inherited them properly.

A disclaimer can also be used if the guns would flow to you via the Will should somebody disclaim. Really, these are things that need to be discussed with the attorney with the Will in front of him. A lot of speculation on my part and what ifs, but how the Will is drafted will control what your options are.

Pinecone · Aug 18, 2014

Looking back at the OP's list, nothing is banned.

So he can purchase them from the Estate as mentioned, or if they go to his mother, she can transfer them to him (but since not inheritance, $10 for each 77R).

The lowers can be transfered, but the question becomes their status for the OP to build out in a now banned configuration. It seems that they were built into a banned configuration before Oct 1, but since he is not inheriting them (you can inherit banned firearms), then you would receive them only as a stripped lower.

So, to me, it seems he is screwed on the lowers to configure them into a banned firearm. He can make a pistol, HBAR, or SBR out of them.

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