AOW ? Stubby pumps

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  • GunAddict

    GunAddict
    Apr 15, 2009
    477
    St. Mary's
    I want to get me one of these puppies:
    moss-RB.jpg
     

    midcountyg

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 7, 2009
    2,665
    Preston, MD
    So am I correct in assuming that if you took, lets say a mossberg, that came with a pistol grip from the factory to someone with their class II, they could cut the barrel and then it would be an AOW with a $5 stamp?

    Mossberg Persuader minus some barrel and built by a class 2 manufacturer= one AOW transferable with a $5 fee ;)
     

    zombiehunter

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 8, 2008
    6,505
    To answer the question about taking my own pistol grip only to a class 2/3 it'd be my understanding that I'd have to first sell it to him/he'd have to take legal possession of it on his books then he could do the work and sell it back for the $5 bribe.
     
    As soon as it's given to us, (07 manufacturers W/SOT) we must put it on the books at which point you can still own it as it could just be in for repairs. It's after the work that transforms it into a NFA regulated weapon, (AOW) and we file a manufacturer’s form II that it is legally registered to us and receives the AOW designation. We than have to transfer it via a form 4 to you as an AOW with a $5 tax stamp.

    You could also just form 1 it as an individual, we are preparing to market a kit in mid 2010 which with your Mossy or Rem receiver you assemble a Super Shorty. No cutting or welding just swap out parts. You would need an approved form 1 prior to purchasing the kit but this isn't rocket science and in less than a 1/2 hour you’re sporting a Super Shorty. :D

    As it has been pointed out previously in this thread the weapon being transformed must have left the original manufacturer WITHOUT a shoulder stock ever being attached to be classed an AOW.


    To answer the question about taking my own pistol grip only to a class 2/3 it'd be my understanding that I'd have to first sell it to him/he'd have to take legal possession of it on his books then he could do the work and sell it back for the $5 bribe.
     

    Jerry M

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2007
    1,688
    Glen Burnie MD
    So am I correct in assuming that if you took, lets say a mossberg, that came with a pistol grip from the factory to someone with their class II, they could cut the barrel and then it would be an AOW with a $5 stamp?

    No, because it was originally manufactured as a shotgun. Cutting the barrel would cause it to 'become' a short barreled shotgun.

    To do what you described you would have to register the shotgun (with the Feds) as a short barreled shotgun, BEFORE YOU CUT, and pay the $200 tax.

    Only if the firearm came from the factory as an AOW, and registered as such (e.g. manufactured with a barrel less that 18 inches) is it an AOW.

    Good luck

    Jerry
     

    jaypark

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Sep 29, 2009
    3,471
    peoples republic of MOCO
    zombie hunter I wonder about you... get a hack saw and take care of the problem... once you do this proceed to PG county and offer some of the usual suspects an opportunity to trade crack for referenced firearm... take crack and either use to pick up scallywags or trade in for cash

    You said before you needed credit advisement so I'm offering an alternate possibility to get you back in black
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    No, because it was originally manufactured as a shotgun. Cutting the barrel would cause it to 'become' a short barreled shotgun.

    To do what you described you would have to register the shotgun (with the Feds) as a short barreled shotgun, BEFORE YOU CUT, and pay the $200 tax.

    Only if the firearm came from the factory as an AOW, and registered as such (e.g. manufactured with a barrel less that 18 inches) is it an AOW.

    Good luck

    Jerry
    There is the common understanding of the word shotgun and then there is the statutory definition of shotgun. I repeat, if it was manufactured and sold with no buttstock, then it does NOT fit the defintion of "shotgun" or "short barreled shotgun" in statute.

    This is why the ATF says you cannot sell a pitol grip only shotgun to someone under 21 because the statute only allows them to buy rifles and shotguns, but since they are not designed to be fired from the shoulder, they are not "shotguns".

    (5) The term "shotgun" means a
    weapon designed or redesigned, made
    or remade, and intended to be fired
    from the shoulder
    and designed or redesigned
    and made or remade to use
    the energy of an explosive to fire
    through a smooth bore either a number
    of ball shot or a single projectile for
    each single pull of the trigger.
    Now pay attention to whenever they use the word "shotgun" from here on out in that part of code becasue it means this is the definition used and it HAS to be designed to be fired from the shoulder in order to be a shotgun.

    (6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"
    means a shotgun having one or
    more barrels less than eighteen inches
    in length and any weapon made from a
    shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,
    or otherwise) if such weapon as
    modified has an overall length of less
    than twenty-six inches.

    “Shotguns” with pistol grips attached
    In the last ATF Newsletter (August 1998) an
    article stated shotguns with pistol grips and no
    shoulder stocks attached were restricted to
    persons 21 years of age or older if being sold by a
    Federal firearms licensee. This requirement is
    specified in 27 CFR § 178.99(b) and 18 U.S.C.
    922(b)(1) (www.atf.treas.gov/core/regulations/
    27cfr178.html), which states that if the firearm to
    be transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun”
    then the purchaser must be 21 years of age. The
    definition of a shotgun under the GCA [18 U.S.C.
    § 921(a)(5)] is a weapon “intended to be fired
    from the shoulder.” With the pistol grip in lieu of
    the shoulder stock, this weapon is not designed to
    be fired from the shoulder, and therefore is not a
    shotgun.

    Questions have been raised about those firearms
    that are supplied with both a pistol grip and a
    shoulder stock. If the firearm is sold with the
    shoulder stock then the firearm is intended to be
    fired from the shoulder and would be considered a
    shotgun. The shoulder stock does not necessarily
    have to be attached at the time. Persons 18 years
    of age or older may purchase those firearms from
    licensees.
    Other questions raised pertain to entries made in
    the licensee’s required records as to firearm
    “type” if not shotgun. These entries may indicate
    the firearm type simply as Title I.
    http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-1999-02.pdf

    So therefore goneshootin88 and Carryaglock are likely correct.
     
    So therefore goneshootin88 and Carryaglock are likely correct.

    Thanks Novus

    Jerry m
    Well if I'm not then the 3 dozen or so we've made and the ATF approved were wrong. Novus is correct, never a stock then it can be an AOW, if it had a shoulder stock then SBS. And please no one take a hacksaw to a barrel before you have the approved form in hand, ClubFed isn't the vacation hotspot you would think.
     

    zombiehunter

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 8, 2008
    6,505
    zombie hunter I wonder about you... get a hack saw and take care of the problem... once you do this proceed to PG county and offer some of the usual suspects an opportunity to trade crack for referenced firearm... take crack and either use to pick up scallywags or trade in for cash

    You said before you needed credit advisement so I'm offering an alternate possibility to get you back in black

    lol thanks for the concern :D but i'm in the black it's just my FICA score is like 3 :innocent0

    working slowly on ways to increase that and consider firearms an investment like precious metal and should keep my funds on track with inflation
     
    Not to throw more mud in the water, but I'm pretty sure that an AOW with a $5 stamp can NOT be "created" on a Form 1 and can only be done by a 07/SOT manufacturer. Anytime the "maker" is not a manufactuer, it costs $200 to make it.

    If I make one as an 07/SOT it is free to register it on a Form 2 and the $5 to transfer on a Form 4 or free to another FFL with SOT paid.

    When I or any other 07 makes a gun that falls under NFA as a manufacturer, I (or they) become the "manufacturer of record" and it is no longer Remington or Mossberg or whomever originally made the gun. If I put a pistol grip on the 870 during "major modification" then it becomes an AOW when I register it on the Form 2 and I must certify that it has never had a buttt stock attached in it's present configuration. At least this is the interpretation given by NFA Tech Branch to my inspector during his visit last week. That is consistant with Serbu's AOW.

    I believe Marlin is correct if he does the work it can be an AOW on a $5 stamp, but if he sells the parts for an AOW so that it can be done on a Form 1, but if it is done on a form 1, I think the cost is $200 since it is the person filing the form 1 who is the maker and not the 07/SOT.

    I also got an answer on 922r compliance for NFA arms made by an 07/SOT. ATF says the max 10 parts also applies to NFA guns, even machine guns made with foreign parts....for what it's worth...if you make a Krink clone from an AK it must comply.

    We're doing mods to customer guns made into SBS or AOW for $250 plus engraving, parts and coating cost if any. Turn around is well within the ATF processing time for the form 4 so you can stop by and fondle the gun while waiting for ATF to process the paperwork....which runs 4 -6 months at present.

    Oh BTW, I can't recommend an 8" double barrel 12 ga with double triggers shooting 3" mags.....not for the faint of heart!!!
     
    Not to throw more mud in the water, but I'm pretty sure that an AOW with a $5 stamp can NOT be "created" on a Form 1 and can only be done by a 07/SOT manufacturer. Anytime the "maker" is not a manufactuer, it costs $200 to make it.

    If I make one as an 07/SOT it is free to register it on a Form 2 and the $5 to transfer on a Form 4 or free to another FFL with SOT paid.

    When I or any other 07 makes a gun that falls under NFA as a manufacturer, I (or they) become the "manufacturer of record" and it is no longer Remington or Mossberg or whomever originally made the gun. If I put a pistol grip on the 870 during "major modification" then it becomes an AOW when I register it on the Form 2 and I must certify that it has never had a buttt stock attached in it's present configuration. At least this is the interpretation given by NFA Tech Branch to my inspector during his visit last week. That is consistant with Serbu's AOW.

    I believe Marlin is correct if he does the work it can be an AOW on a $5 stamp, but if he sells the parts for an AOW so that it can be done on a Form 1, but if it is done on a form 1, I think the cost is $200 since it is the person filing the form 1 who is the maker and not the 07/SOT.

    I also got an answer on 922r compliance for NFA arms made by an 07/SOT. ATF says the max 10 parts also applies to NFA guns, even machine guns made with foreign parts....for what it's worth...if you make a Krink clone from an AK it must comply.

    We're doing mods to customer guns made into SBS or AOW for $250 plus engraving, parts and coating cost if any. Turn around is well within the ATF processing time for the form 4 so you can stop by and fondle the gun while waiting for ATF to process the paperwork....which runs 4 -6 months at present.

    Oh BTW, I can't recommend an 8" double barrel 12 ga with double triggers shooting 3" mags.....not for the faint of heart!!!

    Joe,
    You are totally correct, when we as 07's file our F2 we change the designation to an AOW. But I have a letter pending with the ATF asking for clairication because an individual can manufacturer say a pen gun with an AOW designation assigned it and only pony up the $5 tax. When I spoke to them last month they were at a loss for words and asked that I send a formal request to rule on our shorty kits. I expect to hear back early part of the year.
     

    Kharn

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 9, 2008
    3,578
    Hazzard County
    If an individual Form 1s anything, it is $200 regardless of what you are making.
    Form 4s are $200 for everything except AOWs which are $5.
     

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