SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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    5.7

    Just trying to be free
    Jan 21, 2012
    197
    The point most folks are missing is not the contistutional "right"; that is established. It is the Maryland state governing body that does not recogonize that right even as defined in the Bill of Rights it so ratified.
    Folks thinking that Maryland will bow to indications that it is obstructing rights afforded its citenzenry by the constitution is unfounded. Do you have that much faith in Marylandisstan? Again, I hope I am wrong. I really do...
    Motion for stay.
    Motion for appeal.
    Motion for this.
    Motion for that.
    Do you still think Maryland consideres the United States Constituion and the Bill of Rights as having pertinent relevance or authority?

    It's for the children!
    Guns are bad.
    Our law abinding citenzenry are baaad!
    The police will protect us all!
    But, they are not obligated nor required to do so.
    you can't sue us for negligence....
    pay your taxes anyway

    I appreciate your frustration, but realize that as "bad" as we think MD is, try living in Hawaii. I lived there for 18 years, because of a good job. Oh yeah, it is paradise blah blah blah,

    but for EVERY HANDGUN,
    I had to get a permit for that specific serial number handgun, i.e.

    1. pay for it, have it sent to my FFL,
    2. then he gave me the info, I filled out the form,
    3. sent it to the Chief of Police for Kauai county,
    3a. Must have a NRA hand gun safety class proof, local shooting range was the ONLY place you could get it, submitted with request.
    4. wait up to 21 days and then get it back signed and approved (assuming you pass all the back round checks etc.)
    5. take it to my FFL so he could do the normal BATFE paperwork, then
    6. Take the handgun into the Police (within 24 hours) where they would copy down the serial num from the gun to ensure it matched the approval, then
    7. they would issue me a Final Permit that I had to have at home.

    You had to do that for each and every Handgun you purchased.

    For Long Guns, you had to get a more simple permit from the Chief of Police and it was good for a year from date of issue and I could then buy (like normal) as many long guns from a FFL dealer I wanted within that year period.

    CCW in Hawaii? ABSOLUTELY NOT, not even for retired police officers.

    So my point is, while we think MD is a nanny state (and it is), there are much worse. All of this activity in MD this week, and with my past experiences living in places like Hawaii and Cali, makes it clear to me, the common denominator to these "we know better for you than you do states" , who laugh at the constitution are they are predominantly "BLUE" states and the best weapon we (the citizens) have is our VOTE

    While MD is not perfect, it is inhabited by free citizens who have the power of the vote. May sound corny but we (those who believe in 2A) need to get off the couch, stop bitchin' and start voting, give to the cause (like MSI) if you can afford it, apply for this permit now given this crack in MD's armor if you can afford it and don't give up hope.

    Governments are run by people, people have opinions and those may not represent the majority.

    Please understand MDresident, I am not calling you out or meaning to sound negative to you, I am using your post as a spring board for my opinion. It's like I tell my GF all the time, it's easy to complain, it's hard to effect change, get your a$$ up and go vote else, stop complaining----

    Sorry to spew personal opinion and bring politics into play here, but that is what this is, politics. ANd I apologize in advance if I offend any "BLUE" voters, but again in my experience, that is a common "BLUE" theme.

    My package went in yesterday. I know it may be denied. I'll still keep up the fight and hold my Florida, Utah and Va permits in my pocket in the meantime.

    Thanks to all of you who have legal knowledge and help me understand all of this. It is appreciated.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    I appreciate your frustration, but realize that as "bad" as we think MD is, try living in Hawaii. I lived there for 18 years, because of a good job. Oh yeah, it is paradise blah blah blah,

    but for EVERY HANDGUN,
    I had to get a permit for that specific serial number handgun, i.e.

    1. pay for it, have it sent to my FFL,
    2. then he gave me the info, I filled out the form,
    3. sent it to the Chief of Police for Kauai county,
    4. wait up to 21 days and then get it back signed and approved (assuming you pass all the back round checks etc.)
    5. take it to my FFL so he could do the normal BATFE paperwork, then
    6. Take the handgun into the Police (within 24 hours) where they would copy down the serial from the gun to ensure it matched the approval, then
    7. they would issue me a Final Permit that I had to have at home.

    You had to do that for each and every Handgun you purchased.

    For Long Guns, you had to get a more simple permit form the Chief of Police and it was good for a year form date of issue and I could then buy (like normal) as many long guns from a FFL dealer I wanted within that year period.

    CCW in Hawaii? ABSOLUTELY NOT, not even for retired police officers.

    So my point is, while we think MD is a nanny state (and it is), there are much worse. All of this activity in MD this week, and with my past experiences living in places like Hawaii and Cali, makes it clear to me, the common denominator to these "we know better for you than you do states" , who laugh at the constitution are they are predominantly "BLUE" states and the best weapon we (the citizens) have is our VOTE

    While MD is not perfect, it is inhabited by free citizens who have the power of the vote. May sound corny but we (those who believe in 2A) need to get off the couch, stop bitchin' and start voting, give to the cause (like MSI) if you can afford it, apply for this permit now given this crack in MD's armor if you can afford it and don't give up hope.

    Governments are run by people, people have opinions and those may not represent the majority.

    Please understand MDresident, I am not calling you out or meaning to sound negative to you, I am using your post as a spring board for my opinion. It's like I tell my GF all the time, it's easy to complain, it's hard to effect change, get your a$$ up and go vote else, stop complaining----

    Sorry to spew personal opinion and bring politics into play here, but that is what this is, politics. ANd I apologize in advance if I offend any "BLUE" voters, but again in my experience, that is a common "BLUE" theme.

    My package went in yesterday. I know it may be denied. I'll still keep up the fight and hold my Florida, Utah and Va permits in my pocket in the meantime.

    Thanks to all of you who have legal knowledge and help me understand all of this. It is appreciated.

    I feel bad for people in Hawaii. Knowing the people of one State have it worse really shouldn't make us feel any better about the fact that the Government of MD does not respect the Fundamental Right to keep and bear arms. I'm not trying to be a tool, just stating a fact.
     

    annihilation-time

    MOLON LABE
    Jun 14, 2010
    5,042
    Hazzard County!
    I appreciate your frustration, but realize that as "bad" as we think MD is, try living in Hawaii. I lived there for 18 years, because of a good job. Oh yeah, it is paradise blah blah blah,

    but for EVERY HANDGUN,
    I had to get a permit for that specific serial number handgun, i.e.

    1. pay for it, have it sent to my FFL,
    2. then he gave me the info, I filled out the form,
    3. sent it to the Chief of Police for Kauai county,
    3a. Must have a NRA hand gun safety class proof, local shooting range was the ONLY place you could get it, submitted with request.
    4. wait up to 21 days and then get it back signed and approved (assuming you pass all the back round checks etc.)
    5. take it to my FFL so he could do the normal BATFE paperwork, then
    6. Take the handgun into the Police (within 24 hours) where they would copy down the serial num from the gun to ensure it matched the approval, then
    7. they would issue me a Final Permit that I had to have at home.

    You had to do that for each and every Handgun you purchased.

    For Long Guns, you had to get a more simple permit from the Chief of Police and it was good for a year from date of issue and I could then buy (like normal) as many long guns from a FFL dealer I wanted within that year period.

    CCW in Hawaii? ABSOLUTELY NOT, not even for retired police officers.

    So my point is, while we think MD is a nanny state (and it is), there are much worse. All of this activity in MD this week, and with my past experiences living in places like Hawaii and Cali, makes it clear to me, the common denominator to these "we know better for you than you do states" , who laugh at the constitution are they are predominantly "BLUE" states and the best weapon we (the citizens) have is our VOTE

    While MD is not perfect, it is inhabited by free citizens who have the power of the vote. May sound corny but we (those who believe in 2A) need to get off the couch, stop bitchin' and start voting, give to the cause (like MSI) if you can afford it, apply for this permit now given this crack in MD's armor if you can afford it and don't give up hope.

    Governments are run by people, people have opinions and those may not represent the majority.

    Please understand MDresident, I am not calling you out or meaning to sound negative to you, I am using your post as a spring board for my opinion. It's like I tell my GF all the time, it's easy to complain, it's hard to effect change, get your a$$ up and go vote else, stop complaining----

    Sorry to spew personal opinion and bring politics into play here, but that is what this is, politics. ANd I apologize in advance if I offend any "BLUE" voters, but again in my experience, that is a common "BLUE" theme.

    My package went in yesterday. I know it may be denied. I'll still keep up the fight and hold my Florida, Utah and Va permits in my pocket in the meantime.

    Thanks to all of you who have legal knowledge and help me understand all of this. It is appreciated.

    Second amendment infringements should not be tolerated no matter where someone lives in this country, and many of us feel that it is our duty to speak out against the destruction of our liberties - big or small.

    You certainly have justification for complaining; however, it would serve you best to submit your grievances someplace else. Most of us don't want to hear from you on the subject of how much better Marylanders have it than a minority of other states.

    In short, this thread is about a specific court case, and we should try to keep it that way. At the very least, we should be talking about carry in Maryland - not the purchasing of firearms in Hawaii.
     

    Klunatic

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 28, 2011
    2,923
    Montgomery Cty
    About 6 of us went out for dinner last night, mom, stepdad, aunt, uncle, cousin. They're all going to apply once everything is sorted out. Crazy...to think there would have been half a dozen of us sitting there with guns enjoying dinner. Absolutely nuts.

    What has the precedent been regarding stays and applications put in between the ruling and the stay? (Use whatever analogy works, I'm not well versed in law)

    It really not nuts. That the kind of perception we need to change in MD minds. We do it in VA every week. Ed Levine of Open Carry has OC dinners in Northern VA all the time. Last one I went to had 20+ people with young kids all sitting there with a hog legs strapped on. Normal as can be. No police, no mad rush of unarmed patrons bolting to the door, no blood in the streets.;)
     

    X-Factor

    I don't say please
    Jun 2, 2009
    5,244
    Calvert County
    This is a little arcane (ok, a lot arcane). The difference between declaratory and injunctive relief is the latter is coercive while the former "declares" the law but doesn't actually coerce. The declaratory relief issued by the judge in this case declares that 5(ii) is unconstitutional and yes, that is what you want. The court has declared that the 2A applies outside the home and that Section 5(ii) is unconstitutional. And that's a huge constitutional holding.

    Now Alan Gura asked for declaratory relief and he got what he asked for with the court's ruling. But he ALSO asked for two types of injunctive relief: 1. a mandatory injunction requiring the state to give Mr. Woollard his permit and 2. a prohibitory injunction barring the state from applying for enforcing Section 5(ii) (that's the G&S provision). The court's opinion and order never expressly addressed these injunctive requests for relief. I don't know why. Maybe it was an oversight or maybe he didn't think it was necessary (as the State suggests) and simply forgot to expressly address it. See below. Who knows. Hence the motion for Rule 59(e) clarification. It is was perfectly appropriate for the State to raise it.

    Now, it does make a difference. An injunction is enforceable with the full weight of the court's contempt powers and is coercive. Under Rule 65(d), an injunctive order has to be quite detailed and specific for that reason. If you violate an injunctive order, the violator can (conceivably) go to jail or be fined for contempt. That fine can be designed to be punitive (that's criminal contempt) or a daily fine imposed until there is compliance (that is coercive and considered to be civil contempt as you hold the keys to your jail cell -- comply and you get out or the fines stop). You need a stay for sure to avoid the possibility of contempt when an injunction has issued.

    In contrast, a declaratory judgment is not enforceable through contempt. Under SCT precedent, the Court has stated from time to time that declaratory relief is usually good enough when the defendant is the sovereign State as the courts will presume that the states don't need to be coerced but will comply with declaratory judgment. It is an expression of comity for another sovereign. Almost invariably, in this sort of constitutional litigation at this level, that respect is warranted and honored. As a rule, States don't defy federal court declaratory judgments. If they do, then the same court issues an actual injunction in an enforcement action and the fireworks begin. Won't be necessary in this case, I'm sure.

    Indeed, in this case, the State's Rule 59(e)/stay motion states that the state's policy is to comply with an unstayed declaratory judgment, which is why they seek a stay even in the absence of an actual injunction so they don't have to comply pending appeal. That's smart. Thus, if the stay is denied by the district court and the court of appeals, presumably the State would comply with the court's declaratory judgment and process Mr. Wollard's application without regard to section 5(ii) and otherwise not apply Section 5(ii) to other new and pending applications. I would expect Alan Gura to press for clarification on that point in his papers. I would. I think he has already started that process in demanding that the state file a proposed order. That's smart. If the stay is granted, Mr. Woollard doesn't get his renewal permit and the State continues to apply Section 5(ii) to existing and new applications pending this appeal. What you are seeing here is some strong litigation skills from both the State and Alan Gura and his team. Fun to watch. Sorry you asked?

    Forum gold. THANK YOU. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    You made it so easy to understand.
     

    mrjam2jab

    Active Member
    Jul 23, 2010
    682
    Levittown, PA
    It really not nuts. That the kind of perception we need to change in MD minds. We do it in VA every week. Ed Levine of Open Carry has OC dinners in Northern VA all the time. Last one I went to had 20+ people with young kids all sitting there with a hog legs strapped on. Normal as can be. No police, no mad rush of unarmed patrons bolting to the door, no blood in the streets.;)


    Probably gonna be a little while before OC dinners get up and running in MD. ;)
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    It really not nuts. That the kind of perception we need to change in MD minds. We do it in VA every week. Ed Levine of Open Carry has OC dinners in Northern VA all the time. Last one I went to had 20+ people with young kids all sitting there with a hog legs strapped on. Normal as can be. No police, no mad rush of unarmed patrons bolting to the door, no blood in the streets.;)

    Agree.

    Wife and I went to an OC breakfast a few weks back, and I was thrilled not only for the conpany and convo., but to be in a place I considered "the safest in town".

    Others OCing came in and out, not from our group.

    It was a good morning. Looking forward to the (some)day when MD is like that.

    /threadjack
     

    OEH

    Active Member
    Nov 18, 2010
    353
    29B
    I suggest this be the mandated avatar of all who say "It'll never happen.", They will throw roadblocks at you." or "You'll still be waiting years from now..."

    eeyore61_5881.jpg
     

    Mr H

    Banana'd
    Agree completely.

    Just because someone feels it will take years doesn't mean there shouldn't be a start now.

    If we wait the X years to begin, the clock will not have moved at all, and we're starting from scratch again.

    This sort of pressure from the bottom up is exactly what is needed to get the ball rolling. Call it a head-start, I guess.

    Pls, if we now see delaying tactics or even outright denials en masse, I see that as a positive.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,353
    SoMD / West PA
    Mark75H said:
    As long as you guys change yours to ":(They told us so :(" if we are right :lol:

    When you work on the plumbing, there's only 1 way to fix it.

    You gotta jump right into it, if it's poop so be it.

    At least you have a place to start
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,172
    Outside the Gates
    When you work on the plumbing, there's only 1 way to fix it.

    You gotta jump right into it, if it's poop so be it.

    At least you have a place to start

    I agree with that statement, but I don't understand the relevance ???

    The ruling is good and hopefully is beginning of the end of May Issue in MD ... but it is not the end itself, there is a long road ahead of us to our happy place
     

    AliasNeo07

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 12, 2009
    6,547
    MD
    If someone is doing 88 in a 55, Maybe they should rethink owning a car and a gun.

    I thought for a second that someone might not go there, but apparently I was wrong.

    It was a few years back, on a stretch of highway that I could have sworn was 65. I was on my way back from shooting/camping at some property down there at 11:00am on a weekday. The roads were completely empty. I guess the combination of those things things led me to simply not pay attention. I could have sworn I was going no faster than 75. But, apparently not.

    I got lit up, officer came up pretty pissed off, asked where I was going in such a hurry. I was honest and said officer I'm heading back home and simply was not paying attention to what I was doing and that I had no excuse. He gave me a ticket and that was the end of it. Soon as I got home I went online and paid it. Was my one and only ticket.

    Should that preclude me from owning a gun or a car? If you really think so, maybe YOU shouldn't own a car or a gun. YOU'VE never made a mistake? Mr. Perfect?

    Sorry for bringing thread off topic, had to get that off my chest.
     

    rambling_one

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 19, 2007
    6,725
    Bowie, MD
    The point most folks are missing is not the contistutional "right"; that is established. It is the Maryland state governing body that does not recogonize that right even as defined in the Bill of Rights it so ratified.
    Folks thinking that Maryland will bow to indications that it is obstructing rights afforded its citenzenry by the constitution is unfounded. Do you have that much faith in Marylandisstan? Again, I hope I am wrong. I really do...
    Motion for stay.
    Motion for appeal.
    Motion for this.
    Motion for that.
    Do you still think Maryland consideres the United States Constituion and the Bill of Rights as having pertinent relevance or authority?

    It's for the children!
    Guns are bad.
    Our law abinding citenzenry are baaad!
    The police will protect us all!
    But, they are not obligated nor required to do so.
    you can't sue us for negligence....
    pay your taxes anyway

    I have faith that we will prevail.
     
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