AR Pistol Options - Looking for Input

fred333 · Jan 8, 2015

I'm considering a Sig M400 pistol with a 10.5" barrel and Sig arm brace in 300 blackout.

My primary reason for this is simply to have an AR (I don't currently have one).

Originally, I'd considered having Engage build something custom with the brace (to simplify things and avoid having to deal with ATF disapproving another Maryland SBR or the additional costs/legal NFA-related limitations). But ATF's recent ambivalence re the shouldering of an arm braced AR pistol has forced me to reconsider that idea.

So, now, I'm thinking that buying the Sig, since it was designed/assembled by Sig as a pistol/arm brace combo (that I may occasionally shoulder), would be easier to justify (should I have to....if ATF officially decides to poo-poo the arm brace-as-stock) than something I (or Engage) assembled.

My questions are:
1. What are your general thoughts on arm brace vs SBR? Legalities vs cost vs paperwork vs NFA travel complexity (I've already got an SBR), etc.
2. For the barrel size, is there another (cheaper?) caliber that might make more sense? The pistol's primary use (under normal circumstances) is as a range toy.
3. Optionally: Is it worth considering the addition of a suppressor and using sub-sonic ammo? Of course, that puts me back into NFA territory, but that's why I'm asking for opinions.

teratos · Jan 8, 2015

.300 BLK begs to be suppressed. If you aren't going suppress it, you would be better off with 5.56, IMO. Ammo is at least half the cost and easier to find.

I personally loathe AR pistols. I love SBR's. I would recommend going NFA, if at all possible. SBR with a can is heavenly.

1BADI5 · Jan 8, 2015

I finished my AR pistol build back a few minths ago.............so how do these fit into the transportation laws........Yes, I know in a case and all that good stuff.

My question is the legalities of it. I know my other AR falls under SB-281...it can't leave the state. Can I go to VA/WV with it and be good to go. I have not seen a straight anwser here yet?

erwos · Jan 8, 2015

teratos said:
I personally loathe AR pistols. I love SBR's. I would recommend going NFA, if at all possible. SBR with a can is heavenly.

This times a million. Driving me crazy to see people posting pictures of their braced pistols on NFA forums and pretending they're SBRs. Plus, you can put a VFG on an SBR, which is a useful option in some cases.

fred333 · Jan 8, 2015

1BADI5 said:
I finished my AR pistol build back a few minths ago.............so how do these fit into the transportation laws........Yes, I know in a case and all that good stuff.

My question is the legalities of it. I know my other AR falls under SB-281...it can't leave the state. Can I go to VA/WV with it and be good to go. I have not seen a straight anwser here yet?

Beyond the standard interstate firearm travel guidelines, if your AR pistol's NFA (e.g., SBR, suppressed, etc.), then you need to file a form 5320.20 with ATF -before- traveling to your destination. ATF's generally pretty good at processing these fairly quickly (a coupla weeks turn-around for my last one).

The form's good for, I believe, one year. Then, you file again. You need to file the form for every state (other than the state you filed your form 1 or 4 in) you plan to travel (with your NFA weapon) to.

The Sig arm brace, which gets you most of the way to an SBR, negates all that NFA hassle, which is its draw.

swinokur · Jan 8, 2015

There is nothing in 281 that prohibits leaving the state.There was some early wording in 281 that would have made that an issue IIRC. It was removed.

If it's a pistol, no issue. An SBR does require a BATFE form to cross state lines.

MacGuns · Jan 8, 2015

Just an FYI, Engage just so happens to have a Sig M400 pistol in 300 Blk. I was fondling it the other night.

fred333 · Jan 8, 2015

teratos said:
.300 BLK begs to be suppressed. If you aren't going suppress it, you would be better off with 5.56, IMO. Ammo is at least half the cost and easier to find.

That makes sense. I just have to rationalize the additional time/cost/effort needed for a suppressor..

I personally loathe AR pistols.

Can you explain your reasoning here?

I love SBR's.

Me too. But the reality is that I live in Maryland and the legality of SBR'ing an AR in this state seems to be in question.
But, still, considering the savings--both in money and time/effort and not having to deal with NFA restrictions--an arm brace seems to be a more than reasonable alternative.

erwos said:
Plus, you can put a VFG on an SBR, which is a useful option in some cases.

Although I can see the utility in some cases, a forward grip's not a really an interest for me.

fred333 · Jan 8, 2015

MacMoov said:
Just an FYI, Engage just so happens to have a Sig M400 pistol in 300 Blk. I was fondling it the other night.

Then, it's got both our fingerprints on it.

teratos · Jan 8, 2015

fred333 said:
Can you explain your reasoning here?

I find them quite cumbersome to shoot. There is no comfortable way to hold it and it is difficult to get a good cheek weld with the buffer tube or Sig brace. An SBR on the other hand swings quickly and just feels right. I prefer AR SBRs over standard length AR's.

swinokur · Jan 8, 2015

I completely agree. If you want to shoot a rifle comfortably, SBR it.

my .02

erwos · Jan 8, 2015

+2 - Sig braces are to SBRs what bump-fire is to full-auto.

swinokur · Jan 8, 2015

excellent analogy Erwos.

teratos · Jan 8, 2015

erwos said:
+2 - Sig braces are to SBRs what bump-fire is to full-auto.

Funny.

Also with SBRs, they are LOUD. The muzzle is much closer to your ear. They only way to counter this is to get a suppressor. So, if you want to do this right, you will need 2 stamps.

fred333 · Jan 8, 2015

teratos said:
I find them quite cumbersome to shoot. There is no comfortable way to hold it and it is difficult to get a good cheek weld with the buffer tube or Sig brace. An SBR on the other hand swings quickly and just feels right. I prefer AR SBRs over standard length AR's.

Me too. Hence my interest in the brace. At least until ATF solidifies their view on Maryland SBRs. :sad20:

swinokur · Jan 8, 2015

Nothing prevents BATF from reversing itself on the brace either, even if SIG threatens to sue them.

But as of now, it seems like the only alternative.

fred333 · Jan 8, 2015

teratos said:
Also with SBRs, they are LOUD. The muzzle is much closer to your ear.

And a Sig brace puts the muzzle closer still, making LOUD even LOUDER.

They only way to counter this is to get a suppressor. So, if you want to do this right, you will need 2 stamps.

And a second job..

fred333 · Jan 8, 2015

swinokur said:
Nothing prevents BATF from reversing itself on the brace either, even if SIG threatens to sue them.
But as of now, it seems like the only alternative.

Unfortunately, ATF's sending mixed signals for both (the brace and Maryland SBRs). :sad20:

erwos · Jan 8, 2015

teratos said:
Also with SBRs, they are LOUD. The muzzle is much closer to your ear. They only way to counter this is to get a suppressor. So, if you want to do this right, you will need 2 stamps.

I assume you were being funny, but I don't really think SBRs are so terribly loud, unless you're using a brake.

fred333 · Jan 8, 2015

erwos said:
I assume you were being funny, but I don't really think SBRs are so terribly loud, unless you're using a brake.

I assumed (and would use) a brake (if I didn't fit a suppressor).

AR Pistol Options - Looking for Input

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