Is it an SBR or a pistol?

HardHatMan · Jan 26, 2012

midcountygunshop said:
Been a while since I read the wording of the law, but even if it weren't attached(which it is), I don't think that is their wording. I believe the wording is something like 'designed to be fired from the shoulder.' Trying this on an AR pistol not registered as a SBR is sure to be in violation, in the ATF's eyes.

Hmmm, I just looked up the US code defining an SBR:

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/s...tml/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

If it starts life as a pistol, then it would never of have been considered a rifle, correct?

midcountyg · Jan 26, 2012

HardHatMan said:
Hmmm, I just looked up the US code defining an SBR:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/s...tml/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

If it starts life as a pistol, then it would never of have been considered a rifle, correct?

When you put any device on a handgun that allows it to be fired from the shoulder, in is now a rifle. If the overall length is less then 26" or the barrel is under 16", then it is a short barrel rifle. ATF does not say 'a stock has to be attached.' A slide fire can be used to support the firearm with your shoulder while firing. Anyone who thinksit is legal to put this on a pistol, do so at own risk. It will be deemed illegal, and if you really don't believe it call the ATF firearms technology branch and ask them. They will be the ones testifying against you in court.

Markp · Jan 26, 2012

midcountygunshop said:
When you put any device on a handgun that allows it to be fired from the shoulder, in is now a rifle. If the overall length is less then 26" or the barrel is under 16", then it is a short barrel rifle. ATF does not say 'a stock has to be attached.' A slide fire can be used to support the firearm with your shoulder while firing. Anyone who thinksit is legal to put this on a pistol, do so at own risk. It will be deemed illegal, and if you really don't believe it call the ATF firearms technology branch and ask them. They will be the ones testifying against you in court.

While I agree with you, it all depends really on who has the better lawyers. The truth doesn't matter in the eyes of the law... and in general, the government has pretty decent lawyers.

Ab_Normal · Jan 26, 2012

Markp said:
While I agree with you, it all depends really on who has the better lawyers. The truth doesn't matter in the eyes of the law... and in general, the government has pretty decent lawyers.

I had someone tell me it wasn't necessarily who told the truth but who told the best lies. It probably help the government lawyers that the judges get their paychecks from the same place - on the same "team" so to speak.

Markp · Jan 26, 2012

Ab_Normal said:
I had someone tell me it wasn't necessarily who told the truth but who told the best lies. It probably help the government lawyers that the judges get their paychecks from the same place - on the same "team" so to speak.

We call that fairness.

erwos · Jan 26, 2012

Markp said:
well yes, if it is hanging like shirt on clothes hanger. What defines "attached"? Is it the lack of movement between parts, or the inability to separate them by a minimum given distance?

If they are independently moving, are they really "attached"?

I have an AK stock that has a spring in it, so that it moves independently of the gun to a certain degree... just like the slide fire. I think you're over-analyzing this one - simply put, you can lift the AK by the stock and not have the rest of the gun fall off, it is attached. They do not move truly independent of each other, they just have some play.

BenL · Jan 26, 2012

That jackass couldn't better a better example for anti-gunners if he tried. :sad20:

Ab_Normal · Jan 26, 2012

Markp said:
We call that fairness.

I'll bet the judges really have a moral dilemma when there is a public defender on the case. :innocent0

chris12138 · Jan 26, 2012

It's definetly an SBR, I know I sure as heck wouldn't do it without the proper stamp.

RIFLE
A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC

Flipz · Jan 26, 2012

engineerbrian said:
So i watched a few FPS Russia videos tonight and one of them was this little gem.

So as the title reads, is it an SBR since it has a Slide Fire Stock or can it still be considered a pistol?

The "Civilian Legal" reference in the video is to the SlideFire Stock being legal for civilians to purchase without it being an NFA restricted item. It emulates full auto fire without the gun being an actual machine gun or needing the ATF tax stamp.

The SBR used in the video is not the subject of the video and ofcourse would need a tax stamp to be legal for a civilian to own.

Balnk · Jan 26, 2012

Flipz, FPSRussia says in the beginning of the video that it's a PWS AR pistol. I don't think it's considered an SBR.

Of course now that it has a stock on it, it's an SBR according to the BATFE.

Hopalong · Jan 26, 2012

I'm wondering how long he has before BATFE comes knocking on his door. And, I hate to admit it, rightfully so. He just admitted on a YouTube video that he manufactured an SBR and it didn't sound like he did the paperwork for it. Dumb.

(DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying that I agree with the laws in question, just that BATFE would have probable cause to suspect him of violating said laws.)

HardHatMan · Jan 26, 2012

midcountygunshop said:
When you put any device on a handgun that allows it to be fired from the shoulder, in is now a rifle. If the overall length is less then 26" or the barrel is under 16", then it is a short barrel rifle. ATF does not say 'a stock has to be attached.' A slide fire can be used to support the firearm with your shoulder while firing. Anyone who thinksit is legal to put this on a pistol, do so at own risk. It will be deemed illegal, and if you really don't believe it call the ATF firearms technology branch and ask them. They will be the ones testifying against you in court.

I don't doubt you, Mike. You have a ton more experience than I do in this field

. I don't own an AR pistol, so I have nothing to worry about.

What made me think was the things like the Glock stocks. By reading the US code, I interpreted it as the thing first has to be considered a rifle to be deemed an SBR if the barrel length is less than 16". An AR pistol starts life like any other pistol: not a rifle.

Flipz · Jan 26, 2012

Balnk said:
Flipz, FPSRussia says in the beginning of the video that it's a PWS AR pistol. I don't think it's considered an SBR.

Of course now that it has a stock on it, it's an SBR according to the BATFE.

I understand what youre saying and dont disagree. But, the "Civilian Legal" termonolgy in the video is still in reference to the Slide Fire stock being legal for any civilian to purchase without the NFA tax and paperwork. Can we agree on that? Thats what he made the video about. Whether hes using a registered SBR or not, I dont know.

Balnk · Jan 26, 2012

Flipz, totally agree with you. The video is about the stock, not the weapon attached to it.

rpker · Jan 26, 2012

Markp said:
While I agree with you, it all depends really on who has the better lawyers. The truth doesn't matter in the eyes of the law... and in general, the government has pretty decent lawyers.

HardHatMan said:
I don't doubt you, Mike. You have a ton more experience than I do in this field . I don't own an AR pistol, so I have nothing to worry about.

What made me think was the things like the Glock stocks. By reading the US code, I interpreted it as the thing first has to be considered a rifle to be deemed an SBR if the barrel length is less than 16". An AR pistol starts life like any other pistol: not a rifle.

Ab_Normal said:
I had someone tell me it wasn't necessarily who told the truth but who told the best lies. It probably help the government lawyers that the judges get their paychecks from the same place - on the same "team" so to speak.

If people keep trying to split legal hairs and other jacka$$ery the ATF is going to rule that this thing is an NFA item and it will go the way of the original akins accelerator.

Personally I think the guy is an idiot for saying on camera that he is attaching any kind of shoulder stock to a pistol.

Markp · Jan 26, 2012

rpker said:
If people keep trying to split legal hairs and other jacka$$ery the ATF is going to rule that this thing is an NFA item and it will go the way of the original akins accelerator.

Well actually, they have to get up at some point, the question is where? I see where you are going with this, but this messes with the whole ATF narrative in so many ways... I agree, the ATF wants to ban this with a passion.

Personally I think the guy is an idiot for saying on camera that he is attaching any kind of shoulder stock to a pistol.

He's not an idiot, but rather just a guy who doesn't need to worry about the ATF. Have you ever seen hollywood worrying about using a mini-gun in a movie...same thing here, it's entertainment... He's not gonna get ATF scrutiny any more than Michael Moore would.

Kingjamez · Jan 26, 2012

Markp said:
I agree, the ATF wants to ban this with a passion.

Actually, here is a quote from TheFirearmsBlog "Chief Spencer, ATF-FTB, is a patriot. He is a retired Army Colonel and truly is a “gun guy.” At the recent NFA-TCA conference, he called the slide fire stock “pretty cool” and approved it’s use after watching Youtube videos."

-Jim

Markp · Jan 27, 2012

Kingjamez said:
Actually, here is a quote from TheFirearmsBlog "Chief Spencer, ATF-FTB, is a patriot. He is a retired Army Colonel and truly is a “gun guy.” At the recent NFA-TCA conference, he called the slide fire stock “pretty cool” and approved it’s use after watching Youtube videos."

-Jim

I stand corrected then.

Ab_Normal · Jan 27, 2012

rpker said:
If people keep trying to split legal hairs and other jacka$$ery the ATF is going to rule that this thing is an NFA item and it will go the way of the original akins accelerator.

Personally I think the guy is an idiot for saying on camera that he is attaching any kind of shoulder stock to a pistol.

If you would direct your frustration at the proper sources then maybe we could dispense will all of this 'jacka$$ery'. Specifically the part that says "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Of course there isn't much hair splitting there - they just trample all over it.

There should have never been a need for someone to develop these types of devices to start with. :mad54:

Is it an SBR or a pistol?

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