Submitted Today to MSP & ATF

DaemonAssassin · Sep 30, 2014

Thanks for leading the fight for us!

erwos · Oct 1, 2014

Ugh, that played out about as I predicted it would. "We're a handgun and a rifle because no one ever said we couldn't be both!"

I especially enjoy how they never actually tackle this little problem from 4-201:

(5) "Handgun" does not include a Shotgun, Rifle, or Antique Firearm;

I'd love to see them defend all of this in court with a statement like that.

Engage Armament · Oct 1, 2014

erwos said:
Ugh, that played out about as I predicted it would. "We're a handgun and a rifle because no one ever said we couldn't be both!"

I especially enjoy how they never actually tackle this little problem from 4-201:

I'd love to see them defend all of this in court with a statement like that.

You hit the nail on the head right there boss.

RoboRay · Oct 1, 2014

Thank you for persevering.

I guess I'll have to come back and buy some more shit.

Scottysan · Oct 1, 2014

Great work, taking point! Thanks for all your continuing efforts!

Claybreaker 2 · Oct 1, 2014

Not surprising given their attitude that the rules are whatever they want them to be, even when they obviously conflict. Thank you Andy for continuing this fight and please let us know how we can support this, beyond more Engage purchases of course.

polaris500rse · Oct 1, 2014

Great letter and thanks!

7A38 · Oct 1, 2014

Andy/Engage Armament, thank you for taking lead on this and thank you for not giving up.

7A38

shocka04 · Oct 2, 2014

7A38 said:
Andy/Engage Armament, thank you for taking lead on this and thank you for not giving up.

7A38

+1, Thanks

RedTide · Oct 2, 2014

zenMonkey said:
Thank you for taking this on. Do you have a legal fund donation jar in your shop?

+1

jkeys · Oct 3, 2014

MSP response is going to backfire on them if it stands. If a SBR is considered a rifle then we are free to open carry them.

swinokur · Oct 3, 2014

I think it more likely the long gun designation would be thrown out since an SBR meets the statutory description of a handgun. The MSP made up the rifle part.

But IANAL.

Marauder · Oct 4, 2014

7A38 said:
Andy/Engage Armament, thank you for taking lead on this and thank you for not giving up.

7A38

+2 Thanks. :thumbsup:

pilotguy299 · Oct 4, 2014

The last paragraph on the first page seems to indicate that you need to get the approval of the handgun roster board before manufacturing a SBR. Do they mean "manufacture for distribution or sale" or at all?

swinokur · Oct 4, 2014

A handgun/SBR must be on the roster for sale or transfer, not manufacture.

IANAL.

pilotguy299 · Oct 4, 2014

swinokur said:
A handgun/SBR must be on the roster for sale or transfer, not manufacture.

IANAL.

I believe that you are correct, but if you read the paragraph I referred to, it does not make that distinction.

swinokur · Oct 4, 2014

I went and reread what MSP wrote. Clearly wrong if they bothered to read the statute itself.

IANAL

ETA-the statute for the roster board states manufacture for sale, not just manufacture., MSP got it wrong again.

.02 Handgun Roster Board; Handgun Roster.

A. Pursuant to Public Safety Article, Title 5, Subtitle 4, Annotated Code of Maryland, there is a Handgun Roster Board within the Department of State Police. The office of the Handgun Roster Board is 1201 Reisterstown Road, Pikesville, Maryland 21208.
B. Except as provided in §C of this regulation, a person may not manufacture for distribution or sale any handgun that is not included on the Handgun Roster compiled by the Board.A person may not sell or offer for sale in the State a handgun manufactured after January 1, 1985, that is not on the Handgun Roster. Compliance with the provisions of this section is not required until January 1, 1990.
C. This regulation does not interfere with:
(1) A person's ability to:
(a) Manufacture, sell, or offer to sell a rifle or other weapon not defined as a handgun in Regulation .01B of this chapter,
(b) Manufacture a prototype handgun model required for design, development, testing, and approval by the Board; and
(2) The manufacturing in the State of a handgun not on the Handgun Roster by a federally licensed gun manufacturer that is also licensed as a Regulated Firearms Dealer in the State for direct sale to a unit of:
(a) The federal government,
(b) A state other than Maryland,
(c) An out-of-State local government, or
(d) An out-of-State law enforcement agency.

fabsroman · Oct 4, 2014

pilotguy299 said:
I believe that you are correct, but if you read the paragraph I referred to, it does not make that distinction.

The entire thing is some complete BS. They are taking the position that a SBR is a handgun and must be on the handgun roster list and that it is a rifle and therefore must meet the Copycat tests. The letter is rather laughable.

The letter does not really address whether a SBR needs to be on the handgun roster list to be sold in Maryland versus being manufactured in Maryland. I've got to get some work done today that is time sensitive, so I don't have the ability to look it up, but I believe the actual statute says that a handgun manufactured after some specific date has to be on the handgun roster list before it can be sold in Maryland.

Well, if you can put a barrel on an AR yourself, you can make a SBR, and do not need to buy it from somebody. Think that is the way to go on this cluster disaster.

Kudos to Andy and Engage for pursuing this and taking it to the next level. This might be one that has to go to the Court of Appeals before we have a final word on it.

swinokur · Oct 4, 2014

see the statute I quoted.

fabsroman · Oct 4, 2014

swinokur said:
I went and reread what MSP wrote. Clearly wrong if they bothered to read the statute itself.

IANAL

ETA-the statute for the roster board states manufacture for sale, not just manufacture., MSP got it wrong again.

That looks like COMAR, not the Maryland Code, but you are correct if the Maryland Code reads the same way, which it probably does because most of these agencies just re-iterate the Code when they come up wit the COMAR regulations.

From what I can remember, manufacturing for personal use does not require the handgun to be on the Handgun Roster, nor does it require one to obtain an HQL. If I ever get caught up with work, I am going to look into a CNC machine and finishing 80% handgun frames and lowers.

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