Gun record keeping questions that have been nagging at me for a while.

Hey all. I have had some gun record keeping questions that have been nagging at me for a long time. I'd like to pose them so I can make sure I am 100% in compliance with the law.

1. Is there a way that I can check and see which firearms MSP has a record of me owning? (very long story short, I sold an HBAR FTF to a buddy years ago, but over the years I keep getting scared it wasn't an HBAR. I had him fill out a bill of sale to cover my butt, but years later with the laws going the way they're going, I just want to make sure I'm safe. I'm pretty sure the AR was bought when I was 20 and it was non regulated (which it must have been if I was under 21.) If I call MSP and get a record of what regulated weapons they have a record of me getting, and it isn't on there, then I'll no for sure it was an HBAR and I can stop worrying. I'm 99% sure, it has just been nagging at me lately and my memory sucks.

2. If I purchased a handgun from a FFL in MD, and then ended up selling it back to a FFL in MD, is that sale recorded anywhere? Would MSP still consider it mine? I bought a PPK years ago (it was a S&W and a jam-o-matic.) I sold it to the Armory in Annapolis. I do not recall filling out any paperwork for the sale. Is this how it normally works when selling a handgun to an FFL in MD? No paperwork? In the MSP records, wouldn't it then still come up as mine?

3. If you have a handgun or what was previously a regulated long arm, can you sell it to an FFL in another state? Are there records of this, or would MSP still think it is yours?

4. Is the legality of "FTF" transfers for long arms in the law somewhere, or is it just one of those things where it's legal because it isn't illegal? Any documentation from MSP to support this?

Thanks all. Just want to make sure I'm 100% in compliance with the law, and that I understand it correctly.

I'll take a first stab at this. But they'll be better answers out there.

1. technically it would be possible for them to pull up a record of registered/regulated arms. Getting that information might require a FIOA request or eventually a lawsuit. Gov't is fairly bad about giving up information even if you're asking about yourself. My example is the No fly list. as in finding out if you're on it and getting off it.

As far as HBARness, it falls a bit on the dealer who sold it to you. If they sold as an HBAR, then there shouldn't be anything (77r) that went to MSP. Just the NICS check and the 4473 that the dealer keeps. Assuming it's was a legit, then a Bill of sale should cover you if something weird happened and somehow it gets traced back to you as the original owner.

2. This one is a red flag for me. I would assume (haven't sold a gun) that you'd have some paperwork saying you sold the gun, to whom (a shop), and the gun is otherwise clean. The shop in question should have filed something to show they now have it and when they eventually sell it, a new 77r gets sent to MSP to register the new owner.

3. shouldn't be a problem. Usually if the state they're in can sell it as either regulated or Cash n Carry, you can sell to them. If it's more restrictive, then it might depend on them. i don't think FFLs are barred from acquiring any kind of firearm, but their ability and to whom they can sell are affected by local laws.

A dealer in NY isn't gonna be able to sell an AR15 in the state but he could buy it off you and put in on one of the auction sites and once sold, he'd send it to the FFL who'll complete the transfer for the buyer. As a result, most FFLs tend to buy what they can sell in their shop unless you come in with a good story and make it worth their effort (aka, selling at a big discount so they can make money off the extra work getting it to a legit buyer elsewhere.)

4. FTF, i believed, is spelled out by law what can or can't be sold this way. The famous 'gun show loop is part of this.' generally, long arms can be sold FTF without a background check. So a friend from work, the dealer at a show, or who ever you're comfortable making the deal with. Even the FSA'13 states the FTF legality. currently, only a few places require checks on all sales regardless of party.

If you want your bases covered beyond a record of sale, you can just add a FFL to the mix. most FFLs do transfers as the process is just the 4473 and a call to NICS to verify the seller is legit. creates a second 'private' record of the transaction and gets a check done if you and the buyer aren't buddy buddy to your comfort.

Now where's the old guys with better answers? i wanna see if i'm close or not...

The FFL would have to log the gun into his/her inventory; but yeah, that is weird they didn't give you a reciept.

AliasNeo07 said:

Hey all. I have had some gun record keeping questions that have been nagging at me for a long time. I'd like to pose them so I can make sure I am 100% in compliance with the law.

1. Is there a way that I can check and see which firearms MSP has a record of me owning? (very long story short, I sold an HBAR FTF to a buddy years ago, but over the years I keep getting scared it wasn't an HBAR. I had him fill out a bill of sale to cover my butt, but years later with the laws going the way they're going, I just want to make sure I'm safe. I'm pretty sure the AR was bought when I was 20 and it was non regulated (which it must have been if I was under 21.) If I call MSP and get a record of what regulated weapons they have a record of me getting, and it isn't on there, then I'll no for sure it was an HBAR and I can stop worrying. I'm 99% sure, it has just been nagging at me lately and my memory sucks.

2. If I purchased a handgun from a FFL in MD, and then ended up selling it back to a FFL in MD, is that sale recorded anywhere? Would MSP still consider it mine? I bought a PPK years ago (it was a S&W and a jam-o-matic.) I sold it to the Armory in Annapolis. I do not recall filling out any paperwork for the sale. Is this how it normally works when selling a handgun to an FFL in MD? No paperwork? In the MSP records, wouldn't it then still come up as mine?

3. If you have a handgun or what was previously a regulated long arm, can you sell it to an FFL in another state? Are there records of this, or would MSP still think it is yours?

4. Is the legality of "FTF" transfers for long arms in the law somewhere, or is it just one of those things where it's legal because it isn't illegal? Any documentation from MSP to support this?

Thanks all. Just want to make sure I'm 100% in compliance with the law, and that I understand it correctly.

Click to expand...

Been a few years now since I wore a badge but I'll try.

1. I would call licensing and ask them if they will do it for you informally through MGUN. Otherwise you might have to file a PIA.

2. If the dealer sold it as a MD regulated firearm then it would be updated to the new owner. But if they didn't sell it, or sold it out of state it is probably still under your name as there is no way I know of that this information would have been captured.

3. Yes to selling the handgun to a licensed dealer in another state. I believe the AWB also specifically says you can sell a banned weapon to dealer in another state, I could be wrong. But I still think its perfectly legal to do (I am not a lawyer). Again no way for MSP to capture this info so the gun would stay under your name unless you notified them.

4. I doubt any docs from MSP, but check the ATF website and their downloadable pdf of firearms laws.

AliasNeo07 said:

Hey all. I have had some gun record keeping questions that have been nagging at me for a long time. I'd like to pose them so I can make sure I am 100% in compliance with the law.

1. Is there a way that I can check and see which firearms MSP has a record of me owning? (very long story short, I sold an HBAR FTF to a buddy years ago, but over the years I keep getting scared it wasn't an HBAR. I had him fill out a bill of sale to cover my butt, but years later with the laws going the way they're going, I just want to make sure I'm safe. I'm pretty sure the AR was bought when I was 20 and it was non regulated (which it must have been if I was under 21.) If I call MSP and get a record of what regulated weapons they have a record of me getting, and it isn't on there, then I'll no for sure it was an HBAR and I can stop worrying. I'm 99% sure, it has just been nagging at me lately and my memory sucks.

Click to expand...

Call the MSP licensing division and ask for 1st SGT Casey and ask him for a copy of your file.

AliasNeo07 said:

2. If I purchased a handgun from a FFL in MD, and then ended up selling it back to a FFL in MD, is that sale recorded anywhere? Would MSP still consider it mine? I bought a PPK years ago (it was a S&W and a jam-o-matic.) I sold it to the Armory in Annapolis. I do not recall filling out any paperwork for the sale. Is this how it normally works when selling a handgun to an FFL in MD? No paperwork? In the MSP records, wouldn't it then still come up as mine?

Click to expand...

Once a handgun (Or any regulated firearm for that matter) is sold to you on a 77R, the MSP shows it as yours. They do not remove a firearm from "your list" even when they receive another 77R for the firearm being transferred to another resident of MD.

AliasNeo07 said:

3. If you have a handgun or what was previously a regulated long arm, can you sell it to an FFL in another state? Are there records of this, or would MSP still think it is yours?

Click to expand...

Handguns can be transferred to an FFL in the receiving state when transferring (selling) to another state. Long guns and Shotguns can be sold directly to an FFL out of state if the FFL will accept it directly from a resident of MD.

AliasNeo07 said:

4. Is the legality of "FTF" transfers for long arms in the law somewhere, or is it just one of those things where it's legal because it isn't illegal? Any documentation from MSP to support this?

Click to expand...

Nothing in law that makes it legal or illegal, this goes back to pre 1968 federal law when all face to face and commercial transactions were paperwork free.

AliasNeo07 said:

Thanks all. Just want to make sure I'm 100% in compliance with the law, and that I understand it correctly.

Click to expand...

Hope the above helps.

Just an idea;

AliasNeo07 said:

Hey all. I have had some gun record keeping questions that have been nagging at me for a long time. I'd like to pose them so I can make sure I am 100% in compliance with the law.

1. Is there a way that I can check and see which firearms MSP has a record of me owning? (very long story short, I sold an HBAR FTF to a buddy years ago, but over the years I keep getting scared it wasn't an HBAR. I had him fill out a bill of sale to cover my butt, but years later with the laws going the way they're going, I just want to make sure I'm safe. I'm pretty sure the AR was bought when I was 20 and it was non regulated (which it must have been if I was under 21.) If I call MSP and get a record of what regulated weapons they have a record of me getting, and it isn't on there, then I'll no for sure it was an HBAR and I can stop worrying. I'm 99% sure, it has just been nagging at me lately and my memory sucks.

2. If I purchased a handgun from a FFL in MD, and then ended up selling it back to a FFL in MD, is that sale recorded anywhere? Would MSP still consider it mine? I bought a PPK years ago (it was a S&W and a jam-o-matic.) I sold it to the Armory in Annapolis. I do not recall filling out any paperwork for the sale. Is this how it normally works when selling a handgun to an FFL in MD? No paperwork? In the MSP records, wouldn't it then still come up as mine?

3. If you have a handgun or what was previously a regulated long arm, can you sell it to an FFL in another state? Are there records of this, or would MSP still think it is yours?

4. Is the legality of "FTF" transfers for long arms in the law somewhere, or is it just one of those things where it's legal because it isn't illegal? Any documentation from MSP to support this?

Thanks all. Just want to make sure I'm 100% in compliance with the law, and that I understand it correctly.

Click to expand...

1) Yes, you can contact MSP licensing for a list of what is registered to you. Search, there is a thread about do just this.

2) MSP never unregisters a regulated firearm. So you buy it, it is registered under your name. You sell it legally (through an FFL or directly through MSP), it is now ALSO registered under the new buyers name. And so forth. 100 different owners in MD, 100 peoples names registered to the firearm. Your PPK is still shown in MSP records as you having bought it, and also, if the FFL sold it to another resident of MD, it will show up in their name also. If they sold it out of state, then MSP has NO record except you purchasing it.

HMMM, and idea, let's round robin all our firearms to each other on MDShooters. Create HUNDREDS of registrations for every regulated firearm.

3) MSP only records transactions that are legally performed in the state of MD for regulated firearms. So if you sell it to or through an FFL in another state, MD has NO record of that. The FFL involved, will have a record of receiving and what happens to the firearm.

ALL firearms transactions between residents of different states MUST go through an FFL to be legal. There is NO requirement that long or hand guns be shipped FROM an FFL, only that they go TO and FFL to be transferred to a buyer.

4) All FTF transactions are legal, unless there is a law that prohibits them.

Is there a law that says you can take a dump in your toilet? No, but there are laws about where you may NOT take a dump. So do you worry that your toilet might be not legal since there is no law saying it is OK?

The way it works here in the US (assuming you are taking about the US), is that you may do it, unless there is a law or regulation saying you cannot. Laws that specifically say you can do something, are there to protect your ability to do that something legally.

If you want a law to tell you everything you may do, try a Communist country.

Pinecone said:

4) All FTF transactions between residents of the same state are legal, unless there is a law that prohibits them.

Click to expand...

just for clarification

interstate transfers of handguns

dblas said:

Handguns have to be transferred from one FFL to another when transferring (selling) to another state. Long guns and Shotguns can be sold directly to an FFL out of state if the FFL will accept it directly from a resident of MD.

Click to expand...

I believe that the first sentence quoted above, pertaining to handguns, is incorrect.

It is legal under federal law for a private individual to transfer a handgun (or long gun) directly to an FFL Type 01 (dealer), regardless of what state the FFL 01 is based in. An FFL must be involved in an inter-state handgun transfer (except for antiques and muzzleloaders), but only on the buyer's end (i.e., only in the other state). There is no federal requirement that the out-of-state FFL receive the handgun FROM an FFL in the seller's state. (Some dealers may believe or say they believe that there is such a requirement, but I believe that they are mistaken in so asserting.)

(While I am speaking here about transfers to FFL 01s -- dealers -- the same applies to transfers to certain other classifications of FFL based in other states, within the scopes of those respective license types.)

As evidence in support of what I say above, I would cite, for example, the ATF brochure, "Best Practices: Transfers of Firearms by Private Sellers," which states, "An unlicensed individual may transfer firearms directly to FFLs operating in any state." In context that particular statement applies to federal law.

So what about state law?

Where the transfer of the handgun to the out-of-state FFL occurs face-to-face outside of Maryland (e.g., at a gun show in another state), Maryland has no jurisdiction to begin with. Such transactions are governed entirely by federal law (see above), and by the laws of the state in which the transaction occurs.

Moreover, I believe that there is nothing in Maryland law to impede a Maryland resident from using a common carrier (UPS, FedEx) to ship a handgun directly to an FFL in another state, either because the FFL himself is purchasing it, or because the FFL is acting as the transfer agent to a private individual in the other state. (Some FFL dealers decline to receive any shipments from non-FFLed individuals, but that is a personal preference, not a legal requirement.)

I would like to see any evidence that there is anything in state law to the contrary.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I will make sure I call MSP and get a copy of my file to make sure I am good to go with that sale. I'm 99.5% I am, and I do have a bill of sale, but I have heard of the Armory doing some weird stuff in the past...better to cover myself. Want to make sure I 100% follow the law.

Also..I just want to point something out/ask something. Being a 2A forum I expect a little "the gubament is gonna come around and collect all our guns" from some of the more "tin foily" members. But, reading this thread I get the impression that the MSP really has no idea what guns people have, because non-regulated guns can legally be sold FTF, and regulated firearms can be sold to other FFLs in other states, and they wouldn't know. So how would the MSP have any idea of what firearms any given MD resident is in possession of, as it stands now?

you answered it.

they have no clue

AliasNeo07 said:

Thanks for the replies everyone. I will make sure I call MSP and get a copy of my file....

...reading this thread I get the impression that the MSP really has no idea what guns people have, because non-regulated guns can legally be sold FTF, and regulated firearms can be sold to other FFLs in other states, and they wouldn't know. So how would the MSP have any idea of what firearms any given MD resident is in possession of, as it stands now?

Click to expand...

I got a copy of my MSP firearm ownership records recently.

To retrieve them, I had to fax/email them a PIA (public information act) request. Then go there, ID in hand, as per 1st Sgt. Casey's email reply back to me. He said they do not email, or mail, copies.

It was 75 cents per copy. Paid by check.

In and out in a few minutes because I did the request. Obviously, it would take longer if you just pop in the Licensing Division trailer...

I won't post details, but 1/2 of my "records" were inaccurate.

ddeanjohnson said:

Some FFL dealers decline to receive any shipments from non-FFLed individuals, but that is a personal preference, not a legal requirement.

Click to expand...

I Believe this is the case, and is the result of a concerted effort to "legislate through fear".

You can get the broadest and most favorable (to the government) interpretation when you enact laws that are sufficiently vague or confusing yet carry a high penalty.

I think you're looking into it too deep. All they do for that part is record transfers within Maryland. They do not track your gun (or care unless its criminal in nature) around the ends of Earth, figure out you don't own it and delete the transfer from your under your name. Its safe to assume if you bought 100 handguns from an FFL, and sold them all the MSP transfers still show you as having transfered them on such and such dates. I doubt there is a process to delete that, imagine how many more errors there would be?

Its kind of funny and shows you the level of service given to the task. Except time involved as compared...I bet none of their criminal investigations and trooper applicant backgrounds are filled with as much inaccurate information

ddeanjohnson said:

I believe that the first sentence quoted above, pertaining to handguns, is incorrect.

It is legal under federal law for a private individual to transfer a handgun (or long gun) directly to an FFL Type 01 (dealer), regardless of what state the FFL 01 is based in. An FFL must be involved in an inter-state handgun transfer (except for antiques and muzzleloaders), but only on the buyer's end (i.e., only in the other state). There is no federal requirement that the out-of-state FFL receive the handgun FROM an FFL in the seller's state. (Some dealers may believe or say they believe that there is such a requirement, but I believe that they are mistaken in so asserting.)

(While I am speaking here about transfers to FFL 01s -- dealers -- the same applies to transfers to certain other classifications of FFL based in other states, within the scopes of those respective license types.)

As evidence in support of what I say above, I would cite, for example, the ATF brochure, "Best Practices: Transfers of Firearms by Private Sellers," which states, "An unlicensed individual may transfer firearms directly to FFLs operating in any state." In context that particular statement applies to federal law.

So what about state law?

Where the transfer of the handgun to the out-of-state FFL occurs face-to-face outside of Maryland (e.g., at a gun show in another state), Maryland has no jurisdiction to begin with. Such transactions are governed entirely by federal law (see above), and by the laws of the state in which the transaction occurs.

Moreover, I believe that there is nothing in Maryland law to impede a Maryland resident from using a common carrier (UPS, FedEx) to ship a handgun directly to an FFL in another state, either because the FFL himself is purchasing it, or because the FFL is acting as the transfer agent to a private individual in the other state. (Some FFL dealers decline to receive any shipments from non-FFLed individuals, but that is a personal preference, not a legal requirement.)

I would like to see any evidence that there is anything in state law to the contrary.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the assist, you are correct, my post has been edited accordingly.

71Chevelle427 said:

II won't post details, but 1/2 of my "records" were inaccurate.

Click to expand...

Anyone know how, if possible, to get the records corrected?

Will MSP even correct the records? For OOS sales to another FFL,, you'd need a BOS from the buyer and for guns sold in state to an FFL, how will you get the updated 77r?

good luck with that. there might be links in the MSP database that can track all entries by serial number, but that would only work for in state transfers. . Knowing the almost primitive software MSP still uses, I don't even know if the can find multiple entries by serial number. I think someone said they were using Lotus Notes softwaare or some such. Not an Oracle product for sure.

i'd be interested in what MSP has to say.

sundazes said:

Anyone know how, if possible, to get the records corrected?

Click to expand...

They do not have a mechanism to correct the records, because technically the database "doesn't exist" as there is no legislative mandate that I am aware of that created the database.

swinokur said:

you answered it.

they have no clue

Click to expand...

This applies to MANY things.