SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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    prpete

    Active Member
    Nov 10, 2008
    111
    Aberdeen
    Im a little lost here.

    Are people arguning on strategy when their imput wont even effect the case, and are people actauul ANGRY because SAF isnt discussing the strategy? :rolleyes:

    no, and not at all:innocent0
     

    gamer_jim

    Podcaster
    Feb 12, 2008
    13,233
    Hanover, PA
    SAF also sued MD on Due Process grounds. They did not specifically call out "the politically connected", but Due Process is Due Process. I guess they could eventually make an issue of it.

    Debate over. Everyone wins. ;)

    This is what I've been saying all along. If a Baltimore City Council member can get a permit because they felt threatened by drug dealers then the rest of us should too.

    If they are going to deny people they better find another reason to do it.
     

    prpete

    Active Member
    Nov 10, 2008
    111
    Aberdeen
    This is what I've been saying all along. If a Baltimore City Council member can get a permit because they felt threatened by drug dealers then the rest of us should too.

    If they are going to deny people they better find another reason to do it.

    I couldn't agree more
     

    miles71

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Jul 19, 2009
    2,522
    Belcamp, Md.
    I also think the due process point is going to be important. The CCW process needs to be the same for all, not different for each of us. The individual restrictions placed on the permits should be done away with and make all permits the same.

    This is an exciting time, should be interesting.

    TD
     

    prpete

    Active Member
    Nov 10, 2008
    111
    Aberdeen
    I also think the due process point is going to be important. The CCW process needs to be the same for all, not different for each of us. The individual restrictions placed on the permits should be done away with and make all permits the same.

    This is an exciting time, should be interesting.

    TD

    ditto:party29:
     

    TheZman

    Active Member
    May 10, 2010
    112
    I think Gura would prefer to avoid bringing a 14th amendment case wherever possible. In the Chicago case, he wanted the court to rule on 10th amendment grounds for obvious reasons.

    The due process approach essentially means gun rights will be negotiated through the courts. That means many of the restrictions the gun control crowd likes will survive.

    In this case, a favorable ruling will put the ball in the legislature's lap. The makeup of the legislature means they will jump at the chance to pass another law, but that will be difficult in light of a court ruling.
     

    montoya32

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jun 16, 2010
    11,311
    Harford Co
    Here's my vision of perfection: Shall issue is instated, Ehrlich wins the election and the last act as Gov for Sally O'Malley is to present me my CCW permit at a public ceremony:)
     

    Squaredout

    The Widows Son
    Mar 25, 2010
    461
    This is what I've been saying all along. If a Baltimore City Council member can get a permit because they felt threatened by drug dealers then the rest of us should too.

    If they are going to deny people they better find another reason to do it.


    I have completed reading the whole 18 pages of comments since this story broke. I must say THANK YOU to MSI and SAF for doing what they have done and will do to return our rights as gun owners. I am now joing MSI.( Adout time) SAF will have to come later....

    This is GREAT NEWS to read.:party29:
     

    knownalien

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2010
    1,793
    Glen Burnie, MD.
    if looking at the standard for what other states do, does it help us that well over a majority of the states are not as strict as MD in terms of Conceal carry permits?? I say that because in the last two SCOTUS cases, references had been made to what is commonly owned (firearms). Can it be argued from the standpoint of the standards commonly used by the majority of states and that they are shall issue??
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,361
    SoMD / West PA
    Im not being negative ,just realistic.I do hope I eat my words and MD becomes shall issue,but lets be real here. I just stated my opinion that I dont see it happening.

    I think there is a good chance to have a judge define/clarify an administrative rule by the MSP. Which will force the MSP to allow self defense as valid. Note, no laws are going to be changed in this suit.

    The wild card will be when the legislature reconvenes in January.
     

    TheZman

    Active Member
    May 10, 2010
    112
    I think there is a good chance to have a judge define/clarify an administrative rule by the MSP. Which will force the MSP to allow self defense as valid. Note, no laws are going to be changed in this suit.

    The wild card will be when the legislature reconvenes in January.

    The realistic expectation here is the plaintiff is able to prevail and the state simply stops issuing permits until the legislature and courts figure out the new rules. That could take a long time.

    That may be a bit deflating, but it is the process. We are not dealing with a political class in this state that is simply searching for a reasonable way to regulate carry permits. We are dealing with folks who are hostile to the very idea of gun ownership. They will fight hammer and sickle to stop the citizens from exercising their rights.

    The enthusiasm we see on this thread will have to last through the long fight ahead.
     

    BenL

    John Galt Speaking.
    We are dealing with folks who are hostile to the very idea of gun ownership. They will fight hammer and sickle to stop the citizens from exercising their rights.

    Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't think the Maryland legislature is that anti. Compared to other NE states, our gun laws are pretty lax. We have the stupid list and shell casing thing, but no AWB like Mass., CT, NY, etc. We HAVE a CCW permit process- it's just administered unevenly. If the court case is simply about evening the administration of the law, I don't believe we are in for a tough a fight as some think.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    The realistic expectation here is the plaintiff is able to prevail and the state simply stops issuing permits until the legislature and courts figure out the new rules. That could take a long time.

    That may be a bit deflating, but it is the process. We are not dealing with a political class in this state that is simply searching for a reasonable way to regulate carry permits. We are dealing with folks who are hostile to the very idea of gun ownership. They will fight hammer and sickle to stop the citizens from exercising their rights.

    The enthusiasm we see on this thread will have to last through the long fight ahead.
    Actually, not really. Court could mandate that the State call a special session to deal with such a Constitutional Issue if a 2A favorable ruling is made.

    But, as Patrick has said, most likely, the looser will appeal. If the looser is MD, a stay of judgment will be issued so MD can appeal. If the loose is MSI/SAF and the plaintiff, then it's status quo until we get a 2nd Circuit ruling (and then on to SCOTUS if necessary)

    Here's the good news in this. We have several cases pending in different stages in different districts / circuits. In reality, we only need 1 one of those cases to be a win. A win at any Circuit level will be a win at the national level I think (provided the make up of SCOTUS stays the same). If we have any one win at the Circuit level, that is good case law that other Circuits will have to look to and any Circuit that offers a ruling different from any other Circuit, SCOTUS will more than likely accept an appeal. If we have two wins in any 2 Circuits, and SCOTUS denies the writs for the states that are the loosers, the default is WIN.

    So, in other words, IF (big if here I think) we loose at the District court level (which, could very well happen, I know nothing about the MD Federal District court's make up), we go to the 2nd Circuit which is pretty "conservative" in judicial philosophy. IF we loose there, chances are, there will be a different ruling between 2nd Circuit, 3rd Circuit, 9th Circuit, or the Chicago Circuit or even the DC Circuit since all of them have pending cases regarding "bear" OR potential cases on "bear" and permit issuance.

    Several other things are happening. We've all heard the term "paper them to death" before, and that is exactly what Gura & Co. are doing. They have unleashed a legal Blitzkrieg that is so hard to keep up with, one of these cases is most likely going to "stick." As unorganized and as dirty as that sounds from a Constitutional standpoint, it's the truth. Gura has proven he is smart, but now he's proving he is tactically superior to anything the opponents have to offer. Legally speaking, Gura is Patton and now has his enemy on the defensive retreat which means he can't dig in, and cannot attempt to refortify on the run. It is THE single best time to squash your opponent, and destroy them.

    Sorry for the war like analogy, but it truly is the best strategy. It's like the greedy ambulance chasing class action lawsuit lawyers who keep trying and dying until that one time they actually do succeed and hit it huge.
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,366
    White Marsh
    As I understand it, the individual circuits are independent from one another, and a ruling in another circuit in no way affects those in another circuit. Now, perhaps circuits are supposed to look at their peers when ruling on a similar case, but they are under no obligation to find the same way. A discrepancy at the circuit level would all but guarantee SCOTUS granting cert to settle the matter, however.
     
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