Group-Submission of MD CCW Permits: Self-Defense

We're waiting to see what changes may come down in the next couple months.

brownspotz said:

"Too much is better than too little."

did anyone else see that on MSP website under the "who should apply" section pertaining to documentation? is this telling the prisoners I mean citizens of MD that its decided upon who gets their CCW permit based upon how much documentation they have? wow, stay classy MSP.

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Thanks for the wake up call to reality;

https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/SupportServicesBureau/LicensingDivision/MainLicensingPage/LicensingandRegistration/Firearms/WearandCarryPermit.aspx

Be sure to go to the bottom and read; Cases Referencing Good and Substantial Reason

Wow, read the two denials. I can't come anywhere close to the reasons they gave, and they were denied. Put a fork in it for me, in Merryland.

Schipperke said:

Thanks for the wake up call to reality;

https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/SupportServicesBureau/LicensingDivision/MainLicensingPage/LicensingandRegistration/Firearms/WearandCarryPermit.aspx

Be sure to go to the bottom and read; Cases Referencing Good and Substantial Reason

Wow, read the two denials. I can't come anywhere close to the reasons they gave, and they were denied. Put a fork in it for me, in Merryland.

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So what? You still have a fundamental right to keep and bear arms; a right secured by the United States Constitution. The Supreme Court has finally come to understand the right in a more correct context as of Heller. It doesn't matter what a lower court or a review board found years and years ago.

Thank goodness Dick Heller didn't throw his hands up after looking at what previous courts had held. We don't win cases that prevent bad laws in places friendly to gun rights; it's the places most hostile to our rights that give us the best victories.

Once we assemble the final group of permit submitters can we review the application process and the specific verbiage we use to ensure we are doing this in a fashion where the scrutiny we get will be the best possible permit request that can be submitted and potential class action lawsuit package thereafter if MSP does what some think they may do. United we stand, divided we fall.

Does anyone have data showing the demographics of those whom have been given permits or know where I can research that dynamic. Thanks.

Afrikeber said:

Once we assemble the final group of permit submitters can we review the application process and the specific verbiage we use to ensure we are doing this in a fashion where the scrutiny we get will be the best possible permit request that can be submitted and potential class action lawsuit package thereafter if MSP does what some think they may do. United we stand, divided we fall.

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Absolutely. After my class this Saturday, I'll post a main update on here and PM everyone who has indicated interest, and we can then mainly focus this thread on the most appropriate language and whatnot; that said, in the end it's simply seeing whether self-defense qualifies as G&S, so there really shouldn't be much to it.

As for demographics, I haven't the slight idea where we would be able to access that, short of asking anyone here who has a permit; the only significant item I would know of is that the majority *appear* to be business owners or something similar regarding transport of money.

I like this idea, but I am already in the hopper . . .

Medshot said:

Absolutely. After my class this Saturday, I'll post a main update on here and PM everyone who has indicated interest, and we can then mainly focus this thread on the most appropriate language and whatnot; that said, in the end it's simply seeing whether self-defense qualifies as G&S, so there really shouldn't be much to it.

As for demographics, I haven't the slight idea where we would be able to access that, short of asking anyone here who has a permit; the only significant item I would know of is that the majority *appear* to be business owners or something similar regarding transport of money.

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as it's an editable PDF why not do a Google Doc then everyone only has to fill out their personal information

Isn't self defense the operative reason you get approved or denied? It's not that self defense in not G&S reason at all now, it is the state deciding if you are in situation that requires a gun for self defense. From reading the cases, that is what I come away with. If SB100 had passed, you don't think they still could of danced around that? One applies and puts "self defense" , OK show me why? Isn't the intuitive reason any law abiding person carry a gun is for self defense? I'm not a lawyer, but changing words in laws is not always the magic one assumes.

I read that training is required before one applies. then find this;

All other applicants must shoot a course of at least 25 rounds, from no further than 15 yards and score at least 70% accuracy

That is not too granular an explanation. Can someone comment what it means? Hits on target how big? Location of hits requirement?

Now I find under training exemptions;

(5) You have successfully completed a firearms training course given by a Qualified Handgun Instructor. (The on-line firearm safety course is no longer accepted).

OK, the guy I used is on the list, would 8 hours personal defense qualify?

Many years ago (~2003 I think), a group of my associates/friends/colleagues applied for CCW permits in Maryland as a group, similar to what you are discussing. At that time I had orders to Korea, wasn't sure I'd ever return to Maryland, didn't know how wrong things were and would become in Maryland - so I didn't join in their group applications. They were all approved.

Fast forward a couple years, I applied by myself and got a major run around. I know now that the officers were under extreme pressure to be super restrictive (un-Constitutionally so; in my opinion). In the end they never denied my application but politely convinced me to withdraw it and they informed/encouraged me to do LEOSA instead (which another division of the State Police run), and that went very smooth. Qualification for LEOSA is very strict, discussed in other threads.

Others know better than I if now is a good time to apply and what strategy you all should employ. I generally thought 'we' we're going to wait for the court cases to resolve, and watch what our new Governor and MDSP Superintendent do before applying? Any applications now (and I know some are already in, but they are trying to individually justify; not just saying "self defense" (ie Constitution).

Whatever you all decide:
- do everything absolutely legally and properly (the facts, and law are on 'our' side
- make sure you really have proper training to carry in public, regardless of the minimum requirements
- one big screwup now could set everyone back for years
- until you get your permits, start carrying at home to become comfortable and build confidence
- stick together. We have elections to decide who's going to represent us at MSI, AGC, etc. I don't always agree with every decision, but support the cause, so should you
- always be recruiting. When appropriate, talk candidly with your friends and family about why then need to get involved. If every gun owner in Maryland engaged - we would Make Maryland a better place.
- good luck!

Good luck to us all indeed.

Schipperke said:

Isn't self defense the operative reason you get approved or denied? It's not that self defense in not G&S reason at all now, it is the state deciding if you are in situation that requires a gun for self defense. From reading the cases, that is what I come away with. If SB100 had passed, you don't think they still could of danced around that? One applies and puts "self defense" , OK show me why? Isn't the intuitive reason any law abiding person carry a gun is for self defense? I'm not a lawyer, but changing words in laws is not always the magic one assumes.

I read that training is required before one applies. then find this;

All other applicants must shoot a course of at least 25 rounds, from no further than 15 yards and score at least 70% accuracy

That is not too granular an explanation. Can someone comment what it means? Hits on target how big? Location of hits requirement?

Now I find under training exemptions;

(5) You have successfully completed a firearms training course given by a Qualified Handgun Instructor. (The on-line firearm safety course is no longer accepted).

OK, the guy I used is on the list, would 8 hours personal defense qualify?

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The answer to your question will not be found in the law, COMAR, or the MSP web site. The course of fire is laid out in a directive that went out only to qualified instructors.
Here it is. The part that pertains to us little people starts 1/2 way down page #3.
And NO, 8hrs does not equal the 16 hours that are required by law. Simple math.

well im in ....training requirement waived ......

Speaking as a 365'er, there are potentially three aproaches to be mentally visualized :

1. You actually are at least somewhat in the neighborhood of MSP typical G&S reasons , and you actually have a hope of recieving a permit. Document everything, put best possable spin on your situation, and cross your fingers over the random draw of Trooper asignment.

2. You know you are nowhere close to current MSP endorsed G&S, and you don't care. Just put down your choice of "Self Defense" or "All Lawful Purposes", and go for it. And resist the efforts to persuade you to withdraw. and eventually three outcomes :

a. In the interm administrative relief happens, and your application is in the right place at the right time, and you get an unrestricted permit.

b. You get deniged. You accept that you were out to make a political statement by invalidating their claimed aproval statistics, declare personal Victory, accept that you don't have the $$$ to be the next Ray Wollard on your own dime, and do nothing further with App.

c. You're turned down, but you are committed to be the next Ray Wollard. Drag out the process of informal and formal reviews as long as possable, and cross your fingers that the issue is otherwise decided at SCOTUS before you sink the value of your house into your lawsuit.


I'm NOT trying to discourage people IF they decide now is the time. Given the low number of outstanding permits in Md , a few hundred people will be enough to blow away their appproval statistics, and that's a worthwhile goal. ( Unless they do the old trick of accept them in one year, turn down the next calender year, and don't count on either year's stats).

Straightshooter said:

The answer to your question will not be found in the law, COMAR, or the MSP web site. The course of fire is laid out in a directive that went out only to qualified instructors.
Here it is. The part that pertains to us little people starts 1/2 way down page #3.
And NO, 8hrs does not equal the 16 hours that are required by law. Simple math.

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Thanks for the pdf. I do have 16 hours, but eight is general handgun, the other eight self defense. Regardless, I wouldn't let having to take a 16 hour course stand in the way if I knew I'd qualify for a permit. For right now, all the trouble Mr. Montoya is dealing with is enough for me. I have a business, and I make deposits, so what? I don't understand that reasoning at all. It's not like I'm walking two miles to a bank. Another thing that puzzles me, wouldn't people have to know I was carrying money? Don't non business owners carry money? (I know talking to the choir here) My wife, I always thought would have a good enough excuse for her job, but after reading the denials laid out, I no longer think so.

Why do people still come up with this need to carry money stuff? The permit is based on DEPOSIT history or proof that you have an active business account, not proof that you are carrying money. If you don't want a permit, by all means , don't apply. There was one member here who in 2013 was issued a permit even though he made it clear that his business was internet based and all transaction where made by credit cards. Yes, ordinary people do carry money. That money has already been taxed and they are carrying the portion that the government had allowed them to keep. The deposits of a business needs to make it to the bank safely so that the government can get their share.
P.S. it doesn't matter if you've got 1,000 hrs of training, if it wasn't given by a qualified instructor it doesn't count for chit.

The course of fire is ridiculously easy. I scored 125/125 or 100% using an XDS .45 with a 3.3" barrel.

On the business/money issue. A prior instructor I used has a "restricted" permit that says "while carrying business currency." He carries a blank business check in his wallet 24/7.

Exempt! Oh yeah!

Gryphon said:

The course of fire is ridiculously easy. I scored 125/125 or 100% using an XDS .45 with a 3.3" barrel.

On the business/money issue. A prior instructor I used has a "restricted" permit that says "while carrying business currency." He carries a blank business check in his wallet 24/7.

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That likely was an older permit.
The generic wording for business purposes now reads
"From home to XYZ business and while actively involved in financial business transactions as owner of same". Wording varies accordingly if more than one type of business is covered or if you win a request to alter their boilerplate wording.

Straightshooter said:

Why do people still come up with this need to carry money stuff? The permit is based on DEPOSIT history or proof that you have an active business account, not proof that you are carrying money. If you don't want a permit, by all means , don't apply. There was one member here who in 2013 was issued a permit even though he made it clear that his business was internet based and all transaction where made by credit cards. Yes, ordinary people do carry money. That money has already been taxed and they are carrying the portion that the government had allowed them to keep. The deposits of a business needs to make it to the bank safely so that the government can get their share.
P.S. it doesn't matter if you've got 1,000 hrs of training, if it wasn't given by a qualified instructor it doesn't count for chit.

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It is very good reasoning if one does not want a permit not to apply.
The training I took was by a qualified instructor, he's listed. The deposit thing, just to prove you have a business would be no problem. Honestly, I never thought that owning a business would qualify. Thanks.

I'd like to thank Medshot and Gryphon for getting the ball rolling on this. Let's hope this effort brings out as many or more than the numbers that applied post Woollard / pre-stay in 2013. We all know of the "365", of which I and the Mrs was part of, but there were several hundred others that were turned back after the stay was imposed.

At the very least, every member on this forum who is a Maryland resident, who plans to apply for a permit IF Hogan works his magic, and who is exempt from training, should stand up and prove their dedication to the cause by applying now. Hundreds of applications showing up at once should have a bigger impact and draw attention, better than the same hundreds arriving at MSP over an extended period. Make them notice.

Now how about getting this thread back on track?