I ran across a decent deal on Israeli Kareen Hi Power clones and am wondering if, mag aside, they are Md legal. I don't see the Kareen on the handgun roster and there is no practical way to determine when they were made. Are Hi Power clones covered some other way on the roster or am I just out of luck.
Israeli Kareen Hi Power legal in Md?
- Thread starter JHE1956
- Start date
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The Kareen MkII is on the roster, listed under "KSN Industries". (So is the Kareen Compact, but that thing is a unicorn.)
If you want an original Kareen, a MkIII, or a KA-MkIII, you'll need to submit it. I will probably be submitting an original Kareen later in the year.
If you want an original Kareen, a MkIII, or a KA-MkIII, you'll need to submit it. I will probably be submitting an original Kareen later in the year.
Why? Just find a dealer who'll do the roster board submission for you. Really not a huge deal.
drkeg
Member
If they're pre-1985, the roster doesn't apply, IIRC.
JO Arms was only founded in 1984. Thus, most of the Kareens out there, possibly all of them, are post-1985 guns.
There are a few that are marked "Israel A&A Ltd". I have no idea who those guys are, or whether they pre-date the JO Arms / Israel Arms guns. There's no year marked on the guns, so it's hard to tell.
drkeg
Member
My understanding is that JO Arms was the importer, not the manufacturer. Original Kareens were supposedly made by FEG.
There's really no conclusive evidence that they were simply rebranded FEGs. They certainly used rough FEG parts (the slide and frame, most likely), but some of the parts (barrel!) were Israeli-manufactured. Same goes for the Kareen MkII/III and Arcus. In any event, no one's claiming that JO Arms was the manufacturer... that was KSN Industries.
What does that even mean? You can buy one right now and have it sent to your dealer. You just won't be able to take possession until it hits the roster.
That particular batch of guns has been on GB on/off for probably 3-4 months now. I also expect Cole's Distributing is going to be relisting some original Kareens sooner or later. CAI has 3-4, too.
Another possible partial parts maker for Kareens is Tanfoglio. Tanfoglio has been known to subcontract for just about all the big brand names.
Virtually impossible for the state to prove any particular older Kareen is post '84.
Virtually impossible for the state to prove any particular older Kareen is post '84.
That was the case for the IMI Jericho and maybe the BUL Storm. But it's pretty clear from certain commonalities that the Kareen was using FEG slides and frames, and the barrels are stamped with the Star of David. (They're all numbered, which is how you know they were assembled in Israel.)
No dealer in the state is going to go along with that line of logic.
Vile Shadow
...
- Feb 28, 2013
- 28,953
He's right. No reputable dealer will transfer a post-84 handgun that isn't rostered.You are going to the wrong shops
And even if your particular isn't, you can bet it be too close for their comfort.
Asked about dating in and serial numbers on the 1911forum Hi Power subforum
I thought these were made earlier in time and some were pre-85. My mistake.
The MkIII's have Arcus style serial numbers with Arcus's date code. Sounds like Arcus being the frame manufacturer of the MkIII would be a good bet.
The originals look exactly like the Mauser contract FEG's from the 1980's, but J.O. only imported them in the late 90's ... year of manufacture is unknown, but I only see J.O.'s serial numbers with 90's numbers. Nothing that would indicate pre-85 at all
Yeah, I'd be curious to see how the cuts on the Mk III frames and the "KA-MkIII" frames differ from the Mk II frames. The MkII definitely has subtle differences from the Arcus guns. Don't really have $700 to throw at the research right now, though. 
Oh, and the KA-MkIII has a different serial number pattern than the regular MkIII. Huh. I'd be really curious to see if the barrel in the KA-MkIIIs has a Star of David marking.
I am really skeptical that the original Kareens were imported in the late 90's. The Israel Arms website from 1999 doesn't mention them at all, and JO Arms was in existence since like 1984... what else could they have been importing? I've seen original Kareens marked JO Arms, Jo Israel Arms, and Israel Arms & Ammunition, but never actually Israel Arms Ltd.
(My MkII is a 1995 gun, FWIW.)
Oh, and the KA-MkIII has a different serial number pattern than the regular MkIII. Huh. I'd be really curious to see if the barrel in the KA-MkIIIs has a Star of David marking.I am really skeptical that the original Kareens were imported in the late 90's. The Israel Arms website from 1999 doesn't mention them at all, and JO Arms was in existence since like 1984... what else could they have been importing? I've seen original Kareens marked JO Arms, Jo Israel Arms, and Israel Arms & Ammunition, but never actually Israel Arms Ltd.
(My MkII is a 1995 gun, FWIW.)
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