MD Designated Collector Status, Rescinded?

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  • Multifaceted

    Jerk of all Trades
    Jan 10, 2013
    3,209
    Adams County, PA
    This is in regards to the transportation exemption, as a 'Bonafide Collector' who may transport a handgun to and from anywhere that isn't solely the person's property, a substantially owned business, gun shop, repair shop, range, or MSP barracks; barring any prohibited areas i.e. government buildings, schools, etc. - for the purpose of an 'unconventional exhibition'.

    Before I moved to PA, I was (am) a Designated Collector. I still have my letter, and while I've searched the MSP website and looked over COMAR, I can't find a provision or clause that states whether or not the status becomes null and void once the person is no longer a Maryland resident. My gut assumes that it would become void, so I should not transport a handgun unless I am going to any of the above state sanctioned places according to MD criminal law.

    I still own property in MD, in Baltimore to be exact. I also work in MD, so I drive there at least 5 days a week. We also have family and friends who still live there, so though I live in PA, I still travel to MD quite often. I would appreciate the option to be able to lawfully transport a handgun as a Designated Collector if my status is still valid and/or recognized.

    Any thoughts to this? Should I write a letter to MSP and ask to clarify?

    Caveat: I am not looking for affirmation to transport assuming DC status is still valid, I just want a healthy discussion about the law, or the color of law regarding this particular situation.
     

    Docster

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 19, 2010
    9,768
    DC is a Maryland-only designation and is applicable only to a Maryland resident. If your are a resident it applies, if not, it cannot.
     

    Multifaceted

    Jerk of all Trades
    Jan 10, 2013
    3,209
    Adams County, PA
    That is what I should think, but I can't find anywhere that explicitly states that it is applicable to MD residents only. Not saying that it doesn't exist, but I have not found it.
     

    fabsroman

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 14, 2009
    35,852
    Winfield/Taylorsville in Carroll
    That is what I should think, but I can't find anywhere that explicitly states that it is applicable to MD residents only. Not saying that it doesn't exist, but I have not found it.

    It is pretty simple. It is a Maryland law. It does not apply in PA. Kind of like why you can still buy an AR and standard capacity mags in PA, because SB281-2013 does not apply in PA. Just because one state might give you a CCW does not mean every state in the union will recognize it. Exact same concept when it comes to the Maryland Designated Collector status.
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    Possible can of worms.

    I don't think there has been a determination that a bonafide collector is a designated collector, and asking through the wrong channels may provide an opportunity to provide a more restrictive answer. If there is already a letter that clarifies the relationship between these two terms, swinokur might have it.

    If no longer an MD resident, keeping an unloaded rifle in the trunk when visiting the state is not an acceptable substitute?
     

    Rack&Roll

    R.I.P
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    22,304
    Bunkerville, MD
    The Designated Collector status was a trade-out to that helped push "one-gun-a-month" over the finish line in the legislature.

    I recommend that EVERY Maryland firearm owner get this designation, which is free and takes 5 minutes. In a pinch, it is a legal feather in your cap when you leave your home with a firearm enroute to the range, local gunstore, or as you start and finish interstate travel.

    Again, for the unfamiliar, there is no card for your wallet, just a letter from Maryland State Police acknowledging that you have applied for and been granted the designation to purchase more than one firearm in any 30 day period.

    There are many who assume that as a Maryland resident and "collector" you may transport your collection to display to others, but to my knowledge this "collector transport" has never been tested legally.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,232
    Carroll County
    Bona Fide = Good Faith

    What it means has never been established, so if you are relying on it as a legal defense, you will be the test case.



    It ultimately would be determined in court on a case-by-case basis. That determination would be based on arguments presented by your lawyer and by the prosecutor.

    There are no right or wrong answers in the law, only stronger and weaker arguments.

    I would hope my lawyer would have a stronger argument than an old letter from the MSP which was issued for an entirely unrelated purpose, that is, as an exemption to one-gun-a-month.



    I believe a prosecutor could argue that Bona Fide is established by a pattern of collecting activity, recognized by other collectors.

    Claiming that you are transporting your Glock to a one-person private gun show would be easy to tear apart in court.

    If that is your claim, and the entirety of your argument, than I believe a five year old child could make an overwhelming successful case that you are obviously attempting to "game the system"

    If you are attempting to game the system , then you are obviously acting in Bad Faith.

    Bad Faith is the opposite of Good Faith.




    DC status is virtually useless for transport. At best, it would serve as a very minor piece of support for your lawyer's argument.

    If you think it will help, get an 03 FFL.

    Join several organized gun collecting organizations, such as the Garand Collector's Association.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    In the same boat, PA resident with some job functions, family and friends in MD. When heading south across the DMZ I unload and box up my CCW piece and am ALWAYS heading to the range, really hard to prove otherwise, although the chances of a search are really low to begin with. Have a DC letter myself, didn't hear anything about it after moving, no idea if it still applies within MD, most likely you are still a designated collector, but cannot purchase a handgun in the state as a non-resident due to separate laws.
     

    Alea Jacta Est

    Extinguished member
    MDS Supporter
    :tinfoil:When i was a MD resident, I never got the Designated Collector status because I saw that as one more place where they had documentation of me owning firearms and possibly put me at the top of the list if/when they ever started their unconstitutional gun roundup....

    Call me paranoid:tinfoil:
     

    Multifaceted

    Jerk of all Trades
    Jan 10, 2013
    3,209
    Adams County, PA
    Thank you all for the responses and feedback. Lots of very good points.

    It is pretty simple. It is a Maryland law. It does not apply in PA. Kind of like why you can still buy an AR and standard capacity mags in PA, because SB281-2013 does not apply in PA. Just because one state might give you a CCW does not mean every state in the union will recognize it. Exact same concept when it comes to the Maryland Designated Collector status.

    Is it, though?

    Yes, I understand that it is MD law, not PA law. MD laws apply to all persons be they resident or non-resident while in the state of Maryland.

    The particular scenario I'm framing would apply while in MD as a PA resident; not while in PA. I do understand the concept of CCW laws which vary state to state and reciprocity, et al – I'm a lawful holder of now two permits for almost 5 years. In my car I carry a folder that is nearly 1/2" thick containing documents, AG opinions, MSP positions, DC Letter, FFL-03 documents both old and updated addresses, and various current state statutes which are printed off before traveling.

    Now, MSP says that it [DC] never expires, so if that is the case, and it is not explicitly stated that the status must be rescinded upon establishing residency outside of MD thus rendering it null and void, then logic would dictate that it still is valid and should be recognized if the person is a "bona fide" collector.

    Per MSP:
    Once issued, the Designated Firearms Collector status does not expire

    By thinking along those lines I am not drawing the conclusion that it is valid and lawful, no, I am only posing a purely hypothetical analysis.

    Possible can of worms.

    I don't think there has been a determination that a bonafide collector is a designated collector, and asking through the wrong channels may provide an opportunity to provide a more restrictive answer. If there is already a letter that clarifies the relationship between these two terms, swinokur might have it.

    If no longer an MD resident, keeping an unloaded rifle in the trunk when visiting the state is not an acceptable substitute?

    This is my concern as well. I'd rather not casually keep an unloaded rifle in my car, this would be regarding a handgun because the transportation regulations are specific to handguns in MD. Chiefly for me, if I am traveling to my in-laws property in MD to show my collection and/or shoot (which we sometimes do); or if I am traveling through or into MD, where I could unload the pistol, and lock it inside the vault that is secured to the vehicle. Those are the only two scenarios that I might come across, but by doing so I am not clear if that would be prohibited.

    The Designated Collector status was a trade-out to that helped push "one-gun-a-month" over the finish line in the legislature.

    There are many who assume that as a Maryland resident and "collector" you may transport your collection to display to others, but to my knowledge this "collector transport" has never been tested legally.

    The assumption of "collector transport" was the main reason why I pursued DC, because of the unclear statues, say, for if I was going to meet some friends to go to the range, but we stopped at a friend's house first, or met at a gas station to rendezvous before heading to the range. The alleged DC transportation exemption gave me some piece of mind if I found myself in that situation, albeit it was never clarified. For most this might not be a concern because if involved in a traffic stop, unless the information was volunteered to a LEO, then they would be none the wiser, the legality notwithstanding. For me presently it would

    If a DC isn't bona fide, what is?

    FFL 03 is a Federal designation.

    That is an excellent question. For the record, I am an FFL-03 and keep copies of the documents in my car.

    Bona Fide = Good Faith

    What it means has never been established, so if you are relying on it as a legal defense, you will be the test case.

    It ultimately would be determined in court on a case-by-case basis. That determination would be based on arguments presented by your lawyer and by the prosecutor.

    There are no right or wrong answers in the law, only stronger and weaker arguments.

    I would hope my lawyer would have a stronger argument than an old letter from the MSP which was issued for an entirely unrelated purpose, that is, as an exemption to one-gun-a-month.

    I believe a prosecutor could argue that Bona Fide is established by a pattern of collecting activity, recognized by other collectors.

    Claiming that you are transporting your Glock to a one-person private gun show would be easy to tear apart in court.

    If that is your claim, and the entirety of your argument, than I believe a five year old child could make an overwhelming successful case that you are obviously attempting to "game the system"

    If you are attempting to game the system , then you are obviously acting in Bad Faith.

    Bad Faith is the opposite of Good Faith.

    DC status is virtually useless for transport. At best, it would serve as a very minor piece of support for your lawyer's argument.

    If you think it will help, get an 03 FFL.

    Join several organized gun collecting organizations, such as the Garand Collector's Association.

    I have an FFL-03, but am not apart of any collector's association or community.

    Agreed on all of the above, but let's assume hypothetically that it does not reach the courts and is acted upon at the discretion of the LEO. How would this be interpreted? Case by case depending on the jurisdiction, officer, etc. Of course, the information must first be volunteered, especially if asked. If not asked, then there would be no reason to volunteer the information.

    Not necessarily attempting to game the system, but rather act within an unclear statute.

    Again, the intent for this thread discussion is not to look for affirmation.

    In the same boat, PA resident with some job functions, family and friends in MD. When heading south across the DMZ I unload and box up my CCW piece and am ALWAYS heading to the range, really hard to prove otherwise, although the chances of a search are really low to begin with. Have a DC letter myself, didn't hear anything about it after moving, no idea if it still applies within MD, most likely you are still a designated collector, but cannot purchase a handgun in the state as a non-resident due to separate laws.

    Not looking to purchase a handgun in MD, just curious as to the transportation regulations. Obviously, MD will not recognize my LTCF, but if I was once a MD DC, am I, or rather we - still a DC? That is my question.

    This segues into and relates to another discussion about the alleged "transportation exemption" which also is not clearly stated. I think both would need clarification before satisfying the curiosity.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    Possible can of worms.

    I don't think there has been a determination that a bonafide collector is a designated collector, and asking through the wrong channels may provide an opportunity to provide a more restrictive answer. If there is already a letter that clarifies the relationship between these two terms, swinokur might have it.

    never seen one.
     

    Docster

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 19, 2010
    9,768
    It is pretty simple. It is a Maryland law. It does not apply in PA. Kind of like why you can still buy an AR and standard capacity mags in PA, because SB281-2013 does not apply in PA. Just because one state might give you a CCW does not mean every state in the union will recognize it. Exact same concept when it comes to the Maryland Designated Collector status.


    Correct. OP, it's called this for a reason. If you are no longer a resident of Maryland......

    Since the MSP is the administrator of the DC, contact them. I suspect they will tell you the same.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Not looking to purchase a handgun in MD, just curious as to the transportation regulations. Obviously, MD will not recognize my LTCF, but if I was once a MD DC, am I, or rather we - still a DC? That is my question.

    This segues into and relates to another discussion about the alleged "transportation exemption" which also is not clearly stated. I think both would need clarification before satisfying the curiosity.

    Problem is with vague laws you get vague answers, if you ask MSP what is "legal", you get an opinion, usually a different one depending on who you talk to, and what mood they are in, and pretty much useless if you need it for legal defense. There is practically no relevant caselaw, the couple instances I can find it was an add-on charge for criminals that broke dozens of other laws too. Seems unless there is an AG opinion or test case that portion of the law is practically unenforceable, and a DC letter may or may not be a defense. Your chances of a search are low, chances of an arrest under that law are less, and a conviction is practically non-existent IMO about the only evidence that would prove a violation is a confession to police of criminal intent.

    As far as DC status though, there just isn't anything to say when, if, or under what circumstances it could be revoked. Obviously other laws prevent a non-resident from purchasing handguns in MD, and the primary purpose of the DC is to get around the 30 day law, but if those laws were repealed, I don't see any residency requirement, so you probably would still be a DC. I still have the firearms training course card from years ago too, does nothing up here, but of course sans the HQL nonsense, I don't see why it wouldn't still be valid, or work if I moved back to MD. Of course if I did move back to MD after escaping 6 years ago, might have to answer yes to the "are you insane" question.:D
     

    Rack&Roll

    R.I.P
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    22,304
    Bunkerville, MD
    Correct. OP, it's called this for a reason. If you are no longer a resident of Maryland......

    Since the MSP is the administrator of the DC, contact them. I suspect they will tell you the same.

    The ONLY stated purpose of Designated Collector status is to allow MARYLANDERS to bypass the one-gun-a-month law. Any "shield" aspect can only be inferred but definitely worth a 5 minute effort.

    The DC form can be downloaded, printed out, filled out and notarized at your local bank or other notary location-- and you have vaunted DC super powers.

    I think UnderArmor makes a form fitting super hero suit with DC on the chest emblem...
     
    Last edited:

    Jack McCauley

    Active Member
    Oct 16, 2014
    193
    The Secretary shall revoke without prejudice a person’s designated collector status by written notification, either in person
    or by mail to the person’s last known address, if the person is: (1) Under indictment for a crime of violence; or
    (2) Arrested for any violation that would prohibit the purchase or possession of a regulated firearm.
    G. A person whose designated collector application is denied or whose designated collector status is revoked may submit a
    written request to the Secretary for a review of the decision within 30 days after the date that the written notice of denial or revocation was sent by the Secretary.
    (1) The person may request a review of the decision in writing or may request a hearing before the Commander of the Licensing Division, the Supervisor of the Firearms Registration Section, or the denying officer.
    (2) The person shall be granted a review of the denial or revocation within 30 days after the person’s request for review.
     

    Brooklyn

    I stand with John Locke.
    Jan 20, 2013
    13,095
    Plan D? Not worth the hassle.
    Perhaps a non resident should apply and see if its granted?

    On transport... don't Frosh will be AG. As a PA resident you should now be talking to you federal representatives about National reciprocity.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,232
    Carroll County
    The only purpose of the DC status is to exempt Marylanders from the one gun a month law. That is the ONLY PURPOSE.

    It is NOT a License to Cary Firearms.

    It does not, of itself, constitute an exemption from the handgun transport law.


    It COULD be included as part of an argument in your defense if you were arrested for illegal transport, but it would be a VERY weak part of your argument. I certainly hope you would have more supporting points in your defense.


    Why not take a Labrador Retriever along, and claim you're going to a dog obedience class?



    Whether or not you are a bona fide collector is a matter for your lawyer to argue before the judge. Your lawyer will base his argument on the strongest ground he can find. I think a Federal Collector's License (03 FFL, C&R) would strengthen your case. A Designated Collector's letter couldn't hurt, but I seriously doubt it would help much, even if you could get one. (A non-resident would have no need of one- can't buy regulated firearms in MD- it's only purpose.)

    On the other hand, a court of law may determine that you are indeed a bona fide collector even if you have neither a C&R license nor a Designated Collector letter.

    Indeed I suspect your lawyer would need more than either. If I were a prosecutor looking to nail your ass, I would demand evidence of genuine collecting activity, and recognition as a collector by other collectors. "Tell me about your client's collecting activity." "Tell me about this so called 'private exibition' your client claims he was going to." "Was your client transporting display cases, tables, anything to facilitate his exibition?" "I notice your client was transporting 400 rounds of ammunition. Isn't ammunition normally prohibited at an exibition?"

    I'm really sorry to bust anyone's bubble, but if any of us goes before an anti-gun Maryland judge and tries to argue, "I was going to stop by my friend Joe's house and show him my new Glock. I have this letter that says I'm a Designated Collector, and Joe's house is a private exibition." ... well, I don't think it will work.

    Designated Collector status is not a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card. It doesn't automatically make you a Bona Fide Collector, whatever the hell that is.





    ...
    Just be honest. Tell the truth. Heck, if you're up front about it, the cop-on-the-side-of-the-road might even send you on your way with a smile and a wave. He might talk your ear off for five minutes about guns. But if you come across like you're trying to put something over on him, he's likely to run you in and let the judge decide.

    ...





    Now here is a sensitive question for the OP and anyone else who wants to use the DC status as a License to Transport:

    Why are you transporting the handgun? Why?

    Are you going to a Steel Shoot in Pennsylvania? That's covered under "formal or informal target practice."

    Are you taking the gun to or from your place of business, where you lawfully carry it for defense? That is a gray area in the Maryland law.

    Are you just heading to another state where your Utah/Florida/Arizona/Virginia permit allows youi to carry? That's another touchy area of Maryland law.

    But in neither of those uncertain examples are you really going to an informal exhibit. If you do run into trouble, and try to game the system by claiming you're transporting as a collector, then I think you would be on thin ice. If that's the best your lawyer has, then either trust your lawyerr or find another, but I doubt it wil work


    Or are you just trying to find a loophole that will allow you to routinely keep a handgun in your car, wherever you go on a daily basis? Is that what you want? Be honest.

    Well, that is absolutely the very, exact thing that our transport law is intended to prevent. The purpose of the law is to prevent people from just "ridin' around with guns", to paraphrase our new Attorney General.

    If you are "just ridin' around" with a handgun in your car, and the Man decides to prosecute, then the Prosecutor will absolutely SHRED your attempt to game the system, by claiming your Glock is some kind of Museum Piece Collectible, and that your buddy's house is an Exhibition.

    Just the fact that you are transporting live ammunition, even locked up separately, will ABSOLUTELY DESTROY your claim that the only reason you're transporting is to exhibit the Glock to a fellow collector.

    As an anti-gun prosecutor, I will argue that the only reason you are transporting ammunition is that you expect to shoot the gun. If you are going target shooting, that should be your purpose for transporting, and it is covered under the law. But if you are transporting ammo because you might need to defend yourself, then you are clearly not transporting to an exhibit: you are transporting for Self Defense, and Self Defense is not recognized as an exception to the transport ban.

    Outlawing self defense is the very reason for the transport ban.



    Listen, I don't like it either. I sometimes get into those gray areas when I transport. If my back was to the wall, I might try to claim my DC status as a defense. But I won't kid myself that it's some open and shut thing. It would be a desperately weak argument. And I can bolster the DC letter with other support for a claim of being a collector.

    If you envision the need to make that defense someday, then I suggest you build up you claim to being a Bona Fide Collector in other ways. It is not something that is going to be established by any one single supporting point. The more supports you have, the better. Join at least one collector's organization, especially one that focuses on modern handguns. Join a second organization. Maintain your 03 FFL. Don't worry about the DC status. It's a minor point. Membership in a collector's club would be just as good, Joining two clubs would be better.

    And none of those points will help your obviously lame attempt to pass off your buddy's house as a "private exhibition." That's an entirely separate thing, but it's vital to your defense. The prosecutor could probably destroy that argument (in the eyes of the jury) with a good horselaugh.



    People seem to think that the law is black and white, either this or that.

    The law just doesn't work that way. It all comes down to arguments, carefully crafted with as many supporting points as each side can muster. And while your lawyer is trying to build an argument in your defense, the prosecutor is building an argument to nail your ass. Points such as I made, that transporting ammunition invalidates your entire defense will be made.

    It does not matter that the law says nothing about transporting ammo. That is irrelevant. The prosecutor will say, "No bona fide collector takes bullets to an exhibit. The only reason to carry bullets is to shoot someone." It's ********, but what will the jury think? It is a powerful argument that will destroy your silly, pathetic DC Status letter from the State Police.

    The prosecutor can build a strong argument with many more points: Your gun has no collector's interest. Your buddy's house is not an exhibit. You are obviously trying to game the system. You think the jurors are idiots. You are a Cowboy hoping for a chance to shoot Trayvon. It does not matter whether or not those arguments are true or not. What matters is does the jury find them persuasive?

    The prosecutor's thesis, his main argument will be that you are really just trying to work a loophole to get around the law.

    And won't he be right?
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,243
    Mid-Merlind
    :tinfoil:When i was a MD resident, I never got the Designated Collector status because I saw that as one more place where they had documentation of me owning firearms and possibly put me at the top of the list if/when they ever started their unconstitutional gun roundup....

    Call me paranoid:tinfoil:
    Because hiding for your rights always makes sense. :rolleyes:

    If you ever bought one firearm through retail channels or transferred one regulated firearm, you ARE on "The List". If you've ever joined a shooting forum.....

    If I'm not on about a dozen of these "Lists" of law abiding citizens exercising their God given rights, I'd feel like I've wasted my life.
     

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