Need of advice on gun registration

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  • Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,161
    Of course the news media always points out "the gun was unregistered" in any news report involving a firearm even though there is no requirement that guns be "registered". They make people think that "gun registration" is mandatory, just more anti gun propaganda.
     

    beretta_maven

    Free Thinking Member
    Jan 2, 2014
    1,725
    SoMD
    I have bought and sold approximately 50 handguns over the past three years, transferring ownership via FFLs and the MSP. Not once have I (or any seller that I was buying from) ever been asked to prove ownership of the firearm prior to transfer. Also, I have a large stack of the pink copies from my MD firearms purchases and not a single one is even readable, and since a bill of sale does not prove that a gun was legally transferred, just how would I prove legal ownership?
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    This is another one of those laws that is totally dependent upon the honesty and open disclosure of the resident, and it's utterly impossible to enforce in any kind of meaningful way due to the fact that we aren't required to present any transfer or registration information to anyone. The ONLY time this would even matter is if the gun was used during the commission of a crime, and then the resident has bigger problems than whether or not they openly documented their guns with the state when they moved here.

    If someone moves to the state and simply does not comply with the law, then how would the state ever know they had any handguns to begin with?

    As you said, in most cases, they would not. However people do post things on open forums and comment to people about things they should not talk about.

    Also, forum policy is to NOT advise to do illegal things. So the LEGAL thing is to register your required firearms if you establish residency in MD after 10/1/2013.

    Oh, BTW, another scenario, your house is broken into, you report the theft of several handguns, and it comes up in the conversation with the officer that you moved to MD in 2014. Hmmm.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Maryland does not have mandatory registration as I have said. As I further pointed out, there is a new, narrow exception for new arrivals since 10/1/13,

    Hmm, they don't have it, but they do have it????????

    A more accurate way of saying this would be:

    "MD has mandatory registration for a limited number of circumstances."
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    This situation that the OP is describing is a perfect example - it would be so simple to just agree upon a price with the friend, exchange money and firearm, and NO ONE WOULD EVER KNOW - the only people who would ever know would be the two people party to the sale.

    It has me so upset, I think I need to go have some Knob Creek Bourbon.

    Unless you talk about it on an open forum.

    Or the firearm ends up used in a crime. And they track the firearm, that you purchased after 1996, and you no longer have it, did not report it stolen, and cannot show where it was legally transferred (77R in MD< through FFL if outside MD).
     

    Warpspasm

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2010
    1,771
    Harford, Co.
    Unless you talk about it on an open forum.

    Or the firearm ends up used in a crime. And they track the firearm, that you purchased after 1996, and you no longer have it, did not report it stolen, and cannot show where it was legally transferred (77R in MD< through FFL if outside MD).


    Bingo! That is exactly why it's best to get some clarification on what IS and what ISN'T, regarding what needs to be registered. The last thing I would want is to lose all of my firearms over one stupid mistake.
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,598
    Glen Burnie
    Also, forum policy is to NOT advise to do illegal things. So the LEGAL thing is to register your required firearms if you establish residency in MD after 10/1/2013.

    Oh, BTW, another scenario, your house is broken into, you report the theft of several handguns, and it comes up in the conversation with the officer that you moved to MD in 2014. Hmmm.
    Nowhere have I advised anyone to do anything illegal in this thread. Pointing out the obvious flaws in a law and the fact that those laws are effectively unenforceable is not the same thing as advising someone to break the law. To the contrary, you'll find if you go back up in the thread that I've openly spoken about how frustrating it is, and what a pain in the ass it is, to actually follow and abide by the inane laws the liberal idiots in Annapolis work to enact. I obey the law IN SPITE of those things.

    Unless you talk about it on an open forum.

    Or the firearm ends up used in a crime. And they track the firearm, that you purchased after 1996, and you no longer have it, did not report it stolen, and cannot show where it was legally transferred (77R in MD< through FFL if outside MD).
    Hypothetically, if there is no paper on the gun, and no transfer record to prove anyone ever owned it, then how could the firearm be tracked? If it's not in the database, then it's not in the database, and nothing will magically make it appear in a database - I know, I'm a database administrator.

    And with that, I'm out - the answer to the OPs question is pretty simple: do a legal transfer. Done, end of story.
     

    JasonB

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 4, 2012
    2,580
    Belcamp
    No registration you say? This poster from the MSP says otherwise.

    image-3296757743.jpg
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Nowhere have I advised anyone to do anything illegal in this thread. Pointing out the obvious flaws in a law and the fact that those laws are effectively unenforceable is not the same thing as advising someone to break the law. To the contrary, you'll find if you go back up in the thread that I've openly spoken about how frustrating it is, and what a pain in the ass it is, to actually follow and abide by the inane laws the liberal idiots in Annapolis work to enact. I obey the law IN SPITE of those things.


    Hypothetically, if there is no paper on the gun, and no transfer record to prove anyone ever owned it, then how could the firearm be tracked? If it's not in the database, then it's not in the database, and nothing will magically make it appear in a database - I know, I'm a database administrator.

    And with that, I'm out - the answer to the OPs question is pretty simple: do a legal transfer. Done, end of story.

    Just making sure. It was not clear to me, the way you stated it.

    Well, only if it was purchased prior to 1968. Otherwise, there is paperwork.

    And that tracks to first purchaser. So they go there, and so forth, for each person who has some way to show the disposition of it.

    And if you are the one that can only say, "I sold it to some guy, some time, I have not idea." They will crawl up your butt to see if you are telling the truth. :)
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    No registration you say? This poster from the MSP says otherwise.

    The poster says that the new transfer will be registered. It does not say

    > Handguns owned before 1968
    > Handguns purchased face-to-face before 10/1/96
    > Handguns brought into Maryland by new residents before 10/1/13
    > Eligible handguns imported by certain Federal Firearms Licensees

    are subject to mandatory registration, because they aren't.

    Except for the narrow category of post-10/1/13 new resident imports, there is no mandatory registration of handguns in Maryland.

    Furthermore, unlike states like Illinois and New York, registration does not have to be renewed or updated.

    It is perfectly legal for non-prohibited persons to possess "unregistered" handguns in Maryland.

    "Unregistered" does not mean "Illegal".

    That is the whole point of this thread, not whether new residents or sex offenders or boat owners are required to register something or other.

    The whole point of this thread was whether Warspasm, a long-time Maryland resident could buy an "unregistered" handgun from another long-time Maryland resident, a handgun which was NOT ever required to be registered.

    As others have pointed out, there is a very wide spread belief that all handguns MUST be registered in order to be legal. Warspasm was worried that he might be party to a felony on that score.

    But of course,except for a single narrow exception, not at all relevant to this discussion, there is no mandatory registration of handguns in Maryland.

    QED.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,161
    The MSP Poster also conveniently fails to differentiate between handguns and long guns except when it refers to a "regulated gun". Although we know the difference the majority of the public does not. That poster is an agenda driven propaganda tool.
     

    JasonB

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 4, 2012
    2,580
    Belcamp
    Yea. I just think it's great how the govt will claim they don't have a gun registry but then put out propaganda posters saying that they DO have a registry.
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,598
    Glen Burnie
    Right now the general public is pretty brainwashed, and they completely believe that guns have to be registered.

    Something else to consider, I realize that handguns in the state of Maryland have to be transferred through an FFL, but unless I'm mistaken, a lot of other states don't require any kind of paperwork for an in-state private sale of a handgun, regardless of when that gun was made.

    The subject of tracking guns has come up, but a gun can potentially change hands a handful of times from the time of original purchase, and all of those could have been done quite legally (provided it wasn't in the state of Marylandistan) without any kind of notification whatsoever. In that case, even if a gun could be tracked back to the original owner, there's no guarantee that it could be tracked any further than that.

    "Sir, did you once own (fill in the blank) handgun with serial number xxxxxxx?"

    "Sure did, but I sold it."

    "Can you tell me who you sold it to?"

    "Nope - I don't recall his name, and I didn't think to write up a bill of sale."

    And that's provided that law enforcement can find the original owner in the first place, which is a long shot at best, and that's ONLY if the gun has been found to have been used in a crime. While the Huffington Post is not my usual source for this kind of thing, this article was a quick find, and illustrated the point pretty well.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/gun-crime-tracing-weapons-difficult_n_2572908.html?

    We obey the laws, because that's what we, as a body of law-abiding, responsible gun owners do, but it's kind of like I said earlier - if a tree falls in the Maryland woods, and the MSP was never aware the tree ever existed in the first place, did still it make a sound? That's the stark reality of how difficult the laws are to truly enforce.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    The subject of tracking guns has come up, but a gun can potentially change hands a handful of times from the time of original purchase, and all of those could have been done quite legally (provided it wasn't in the state of Marylandistan) without any kind of notification whatsoever. In that case, even if a gun could be tracked back to the original owner, there's no guarantee that it could be tracked any further than that.

    "Sir, did you once own (fill in the blank) handgun with serial number xxxxxxx?"

    "Sure did, but I sold it."

    "Can you tell me who you sold it to?"

    "Nope - I don't recall his name, and I didn't think to write up a bill of sale."

    And that's provided that law enforcement can find the original owner in the first place, which is a long shot at best, and that's ONLY if the gun has been found to have been used in a crime. While the Huffington Post is not my usual source for this kind of thing, this article was a quick find, and illustrated the point pretty well.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/gun-crime-tracing-weapons-difficult_n_2572908.html?

    We obey the laws, because that's what we, as a body of law-abiding, responsible gun owners do, but it's kind of like I said earlier - if a tree falls in the Maryland woods, and the MSP was never aware the tree ever existed in the first place, did still it make a sound? That's the stark reality of how difficult the laws are to truly enforce.

    From your link:

    Last year the center traced about 344,000 guns for 6,000 different law enforcement agencies. Houser has a success rate of about 90 percent, so long as enough information is provided. And he boasts that every successful trace provides at least one lead in a criminal case.

    So it does work. The article is about how, due to there being no database, it takes awhile to actually find the records.

    And don't you think that if a scenario plays out like you say, claiming to have sold the gun without knowing who or when you sold it, that the police will not betaking a VERY HARD look at you?
     

    trickg

    Guns 'n Drums
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 22, 2008
    14,598
    Glen Burnie
    The key point to that quote is this:

    Houser has a success rate of about 90 percent, so long as enough information is provided.
    I think they made a point to make it sound more successful than it is. There is a whole lotta ambiguity in that little tidbit, "so long as enough information is provided."

    I have no illusions that they are successful tracking and tracing 90 percent of the requests that come in - I'd bet that it's considerably lower than that.

    And don't you think that if a scenario plays out like you say, claiming to have sold the gun without knowing who or when you sold it, that the police will not betaking a VERY HARD look at you?
    They can look all they want - if I legally sold a gun and there is nothing that links me to the crime, anything past that is harassment. I have rights too.
     

    Rack&Roll

    R.I.P
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    22,304
    Bunkerville, MD
    Besides those FFLs that actually use toilet paper or paper towels as gun paperwork, the usual passive-agressive action is simply to toss the forms into a box without regard to alphabetizing or numbering.

    Then when the ATF shows up the FFL points to the piles and says "have at it"...
     

    OrbitalEllipses

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 18, 2013
    4,139
    DPR of MoCo
    Something else to consider, I realize that handguns in the state of Maryland have to be transferred through an FFL, but unless I'm mistaken, a lot of other states don't require any kind of paperwork for an in-state private sale of a handgun, regardless of when that gun was made.

    Our close neighbor, Virginia, comes to mind.
     

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