Steel Cased Ammo for AR

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  • erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    The best bet is to use lacquer-coated Barnaul ammo, as it's fairly well-known to be the best of the Russian ammo, at least for 5.56x45.
     

    501st

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 16, 2011
    1,627
    Not worth it considering the smaller price difference between steel and brass case ammo these days.
     

    501st

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 16, 2011
    1,627
    Yeah let me know where that 22 cent brass 223 ammo is!

    Well before the M855 debacle, you could get brass cased .223/5.56 for 28 cents per round shipped.

    But if you want to shoot crap ammo through your guns, by all means go ahead and deal with the consequences.

    Pricing has changed significantly since luckygunner did their test. The numbers don't favor steel case ammo anymore.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Well before the M855 debacle, you could get brass cased .223/5.56 for 28 cents per round shipped.

    But if you want to shoot crap ammo through your guns, by all means go ahead and deal with the consequences.

    Pricing has changed significantly since luckygunner did their test. The numbers don't favor steel case ammo anymore.

    Still running 20%+ or more expensive than steel case. In any case, who cares what it sold for before the price went up. I mean back in 1999... it does not matter. In my experience brass is consistently significantly more expensive. Sometimes it may just get to 10% but if you are shooting a lot, that is significant.

    If you think Wolf or any steel case current production is crap ammo, you must not shoot surplus ammo. You want to see junk ammo that has squibs or hangs... its out there. So yes, I will continue to shoot it through my guns and deal with the insignificant consequences. I buy good quality guns that can handle it.

    The only real good reason is to get the brass to reload. Otherwise for non-target shooting... anything more is a waste of money.

    However by all means, please keep buying brass ammo. Less demand on steel case means better prices for me!;)

    I once shot 1400rd of steel case 7.62x54r in 4 hours in one of my MGs. Not one stuck case or any other issues with it. On our normal shoots, I shoot around 1K rounds in 6 hours. Been doing it for years now. Never an issue with the steel case.

    If you are shooting 556... you need to make sure you are cleaning your chamber neck. Not just the bore. The build up of carbon in the neck can get it sticking. However its not the lacquer.
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,561
    Harford County, Maryland
    I've only read about excessive bore erosion when shot fast compared to good American brass case, guilding metal only in the jacket. Test was done side by side with new guns and the respective Wolf and Federal blasting grade ammo (55 grain). The carbine shot with Wolf exhibited measurably more bore erosion.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Just to settle this, I checked the prices just now:
    Cheapest steel-cased shipped: 25.3c/r (Wolf)
    Cheapest brass-cased shipped: 35.6c/r (Geco)

    That's $412 bucks of savings over 4000 rounds, which is roughly the worst case scenario in terms of barrel life. In reality, you will not be doing continuous mag dumps out of a white hot barrel in horrible weather, so you are going to have even more barrel life than that. Assuming you could eke out another 50% of barrel life (6000 rounds), that would be $618 of savings for 6000 rounds.

    Cost of a White Oak / Shilen match barrel is $275-$310. An entirely new PSA upper w/ CHF chrome-lined barrel and no BCG/CH is only about $330.

    The raw economics here are completely against using brass. The math does not lie. You will still save substantial amounts of money by shooting steel-cased ammo.
     

    OrbitalEllipses

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 18, 2013
    4,139
    DPR of MoCo
    The raw economics here are completely against using brass. The math does not lie. You will still save substantial amounts of money by shooting steel-cased ammo.

    Certainly does when shooting an AR. For my SCAR though, that cost of that barrel is $650-950 for the assembly. I imagine for most other non-AR pattern 5.56 chambered rifles, barrel cost is a similar degree of expense compared against an AR barrel.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Certainly does when shooting an AR. For my SCAR though, that cost of that barrel is $650-950 for the assembly. I imagine for most other non-AR pattern 5.56 chambered rifles, barrel cost is a similar degree of expense compared against an AR barrel.
    You are making a good point, but perhaps extrapolating too much about how generalized this concern is. AK, Sig 556, etc. barrels are really not that expensive, even including installation. Even the Tavor barrel is only $450, and that includes a new matching bolt.

    The SCAR is just outrageously expensive in comparison to most other guns. That said, yes, doing a little math on the barrel replacement cost is probably good due diligence. (Yet another reason not to buy a SCAR or ACR, perhaps.)
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,278
    HoCo
    Just to settle this, I checked the prices just now:
    Cheapest steel-cased shipped: 25.3c/r (Wolf)
    Cheapest brass-cased shipped: 35.6c/r (Geco)
    Wow, I tell you what, geco is not what I'd call low class ammo.
    Its one of the best shooting off the shelf ammo for me and my dad's AR.
    If one WERE concerned about accuracy, and its the cheapest, GET IT and TRY IT.

    Just to be clear, the Wolf, tulamo etc is not just steel cased, they are steel (they call it bi-metal) jacketed. Indoor ranges like Freestate won't allow it.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Eh, the Geco stuff is not match ammo. It's very good for cheap brass ammo, but that's about it.

    Still, you are correct - if you are shooting for groups, you may be constrained in your choices anyways.
     

    OrbitalEllipses

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 18, 2013
    4,139
    DPR of MoCo
    You are making a good point, but perhaps extrapolating too much about how generalized this concern is. AK, Sig 556, etc. barrels are really not that expensive, even including installation. Even the Tavor barrel is only $450, and that includes a new matching bolt.

    The SCAR is just outrageously expensive in comparison to most other guns. That said, yes, doing a little math on the barrel replacement cost is probably good due diligence. (Yet another reason not to buy a SCAR or ACR, perhaps.)
    Stupid Belgians. SCAR's a real treat though. I quite enjoy my 16S.
    Eh, the Geco stuff is not match ammo. It's very good for cheap brass ammo, but that's about it.

    Still, you are correct - if you are shooting for groups, you may be constrained in your choices anyways.

    Their pistol stuff, at least the stuff made in Germany and Sweden is what I'd consider cheap match grade ammo.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    ...
    Just to be clear, the Wolf, tulamo etc is not just steel cased, they are steel (they call it bi-metal) jacketed. Indoor ranges like Freestate won't allow it.

    Yes because they don't want to have to pick it out of the brass they resell... Its not a good reason from a shooters position.
     

    501st

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 16, 2011
    1,627
    Still running 20%+ or more expensive than steel case. In any case, who cares what it sold for before the price went up. I mean back in 1999... it does not matter. In my experience brass is consistently significantly more expensive. Sometimes it may just get to 10% but if you are shooting a lot, that is significant.

    If you think Wolf or any steel case current production is crap ammo, you must not shoot surplus ammo. You want to see junk ammo that has squibs or hangs... its out there. So yes, I will continue to shoot it through my guns and deal with the insignificant consequences. I buy good quality guns that can handle it.

    The only real good reason is to get the brass to reload. Otherwise for non-target shooting... anything more is a waste of money.

    However by all means, please keep buying brass ammo. Less demand on steel case means better prices for me!;)

    I once shot 1400rd of steel case 7.62x54r in 4 hours in one of my MGs. Not one stuck case or any other issues with it. On our normal shoots, I shoot around 1K rounds in 6 hours. Been doing it for years now. Never an issue with the steel case.

    If you are shooting 556... you need to make sure you are cleaning your chamber neck. Not just the bore. The build up of carbon in the neck can get it sticking. However its not the lacquer.



    Are you really telling me that the price ~1 month ago is inconsequential? Which is likely the price the ammo will go back down to until the 2016 elections draw closer/or barring another political scare like what the BATFE just attempted.

    If you are shooting high volumes of ammo, then there really isn't any reason not to load your own ammunition.

    Also you are forgetting one thing. Never mind the various issues with the steel case ammo that were discussed in the luckygunner test.

    The one thing you aren't getting from your economy steel case ammunition is accuracy. And that is all that matters. With wolf and other economy steel case ammunition, you are unlikely to see anything better than ~3.5 inch ten shot groups at 100 yards. Even with certain kinds economy brass case ammo you could see groups in the 2.xx inch range and as low as ~2.5 inches. Now granted that isn't so great either, but it is much better than what can be achieved with economy steel case ammunition.

    Just to settle this, I checked the prices just now:
    Cheapest steel-cased shipped: 25.3c/r (Wolf)
    Cheapest brass-cased shipped: 35.6c/r (Geco)

    That's $412 bucks of savings over 4000 rounds, which is roughly the worst case scenario in terms of barrel life. In reality, you will not be doing continuous mag dumps out of a white hot barrel in horrible weather, so you are going to have even more barrel life than that. Assuming you could eke out another 50% of barrel life (6000 rounds), that would be $618 of savings for 6000 rounds.

    Cost of a White Oak / Shilen match barrel is $275-$310. An entirely new PSA upper w/ CHF chrome-lined barrel and no BCG/CH is only about $330.

    The raw economics here are completely against using brass. The math does not lie. You will still save substantial amounts of money by shooting steel-cased ammo.

    Well lets see, you are using a flawed comparison. First the numbers are artificially inflated by the recent M855 panic.

    Second Geco ammunition is much closer to match ammunition (even among their non match lines) so that introduces another flaw into your comparison.

    I ran the numbers using luckygunners assumptions with the pricing for steel/brass case ammo before the M855 panic and the numbers didn't add up for steel case ammunition.

    You can try and protest by using current inflated prices, but that isn't an honest comparison.
     

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