On the reloading forums there is information aplenty about cartrige loads for various smokeless powders, callibers, bullet weights and configurations. However, I see no recipies for black powder charges used in muzzle loaders. Is all black power the same strength, IE is 24 grains of manufacturer X the same as 24 grains by manufacturer Y? For instance, the Ubertui 1860 Army gives standard and max charges with no mention of powder manufacturer whatsoever.
Fundamental black powder question
- Thread starter ras_oscar
- Start date
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budman93
Ultimate Member
With all of my blackpowder shooting I have just measured to a certain amount of grains by volume with whatever black powder or pyrodex I have. As long as it is black powder or a black powder substitute you are fine.
Here's a link I like.
What is the Difference between Black, Pyrodex, Triple Seven, and Smokeless Powders?
http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm
What is the Difference between Black, Pyrodex, Triple Seven, and Smokeless Powders?
http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm
If you are trying to come up with a good charge for hunting in MD.
Muzzleloader Regulations
http://www.eregulations.com/maryland/hunting/firearm-regulations/
Muzzleloader Regulations
• Muzzleloading rifles may be used to hunt all game mammals (except beavers, weasels, mink, muskrats, and river otters), turkeys during the fall season only, quail, pheasants, ruffed grouse, crows, nutria, and woodchucks. Muzzleloading shotguns may be used to hunt all game birds, game mammals (except beavers, weasels, mink, muskrats, and river otters), nutria, and woodchucks.
• Muzzleloaders used for deer and bear hunting must be at least .40 caliber in size and use not less than 60 grains of black powder (or a black powder equivalent) (emphasis is mine) and propel one all-lead, lead alloy or copper soft-nosed or expanding bullet or ball at a single discharge. Sabot loads are legal.
• It is permissible to hunt deer with a muzzleloading rifle or muzzleloading shotgun in all counties. Telescopic sights may be used on a muzzleloader.
• Flintlock, percussion cap, and inline ignition muzzleloaders are legal hunting devices. To be considered a muzzleloader, a rifle, shotgun or handgun must be loaded from the muzzle, and a revolver must be loaded from the front of the cylinder.
• Muzzleloaders are considered unloaded if the ignition system is disabled by removal of the cap, primer, battery, or primer powder.
• Muzzleloaders may be used in all counties during the deer Firearms Season.
• Muzzleloaders used for deer and bear hunting must be at least .40 caliber in size and use not less than 60 grains of black powder (or a black powder equivalent) (emphasis is mine) and propel one all-lead, lead alloy or copper soft-nosed or expanding bullet or ball at a single discharge. Sabot loads are legal.
• It is permissible to hunt deer with a muzzleloading rifle or muzzleloading shotgun in all counties. Telescopic sights may be used on a muzzleloader.
• Flintlock, percussion cap, and inline ignition muzzleloaders are legal hunting devices. To be considered a muzzleloader, a rifle, shotgun or handgun must be loaded from the muzzle, and a revolver must be loaded from the front of the cylinder.
• Muzzleloaders are considered unloaded if the ignition system is disabled by removal of the cap, primer, battery, or primer powder.
• Muzzleloaders may be used in all counties during the deer Firearms Season.
http://www.eregulations.com/maryland/hunting/firearm-regulations/
Twanger
DINO and NRA Life
Triple-7 2F is 20% more energetic by volume than Pyrodex RS or Goex 2F.
Triple-7 3F is 25% more energetic by volume and burns faster.
That's why I use T73F in the ML pistols.
Triple-7 3F is 25% more energetic by volume and burns faster.
That's why I use T73F in the ML pistols.
Yes, published data will show volumetric. There are those (I am one) that pre-measure my charges and put into plastic or glass vials.
I weigh mine on a scale but use a volumetric measurement to attain the mass in grains. Goex is pretty close to 1:1, but some like BH209 are like 70% less dense.
Maximum charge in any cap and ball revolver is as much powder as you can stuff in the chamber, and still seat the ball.
If you use too much, you won't be able to ram the ball below the chamber mouth, which means you won't be able to rotate that chamber under the hammer. The protruding ball will hit the barrel, preventing the cylinder from turning further.
When that happens, which it will, just shave the ball down with your knife until it's flush with the cylinder face. Then you can safely fire it. Reduce the charge slightly, and there is your maximum (i.e. ideal) powder charge.
You can not fit a dangerous amount of black powder in a revolver chamber, so don't worry about it.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=3467069&postcount=5
- Oct 8, 2007
- 19,012
in the old days, they would use a charge of black powder based on the amount that would cover the ball while laying on a flat surface.
Huh? you mean put a round ball on a flat surface, the cover it with a pyramid of powder?
kalister1
R.I.P.
I thought you Weighed the Black Powder and then Measured the Substitute for the same volume?
Twanger
DINO and NRA Life
For patched round balls another way to guesstimate a MAXIMUM LOAD of black powder is to use half the weight of the ball as the volume charge of powder.
For example, a 50-cal lead ball weighs 178 grains. Call it 180. Half of that is 90 grains.
So the max powder charge is 90 grains by volume.
I suggest you start at less than maximum and see how you do. Maybe start at 70 grain.
I shoot .395 round balls in my .410 pistol and these weigh 93 grains. I started shooting them with about 30gr by volume of powder, and they shot so well that I stopped right there.
For example, a 50-cal lead ball weighs 178 grains. Call it 180. Half of that is 90 grains.
So the max powder charge is 90 grains by volume.
I suggest you start at less than maximum and see how you do. Maybe start at 70 grain.
I shoot .395 round balls in my .410 pistol and these weigh 93 grains. I started shooting them with about 30gr by volume of powder, and they shot so well that I stopped right there.
Old Timers would lay a ball on the open palm of their hand, then pour a little heap of powder to cover the ball.
This is not a recommended technique.
Sam Fadala tested this and other old-timey black powder wisdom in his Black Powder Handbook, a book I bought and read years ago. http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Blac...0526733?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415054531&sr=1-2
Good stuff there.
I recall he tried to blow up heavy barreled Hawken type rifles. He filled the barrel to the muzzle with powder, and it just blew the excess powder out unburnt. I think he finally managed to blow one with a ball or balls separate from the powder charge.
- Oct 8, 2007
- 19,012
exactly.
shooter101
Member
- Mar 15, 2012
- 4
The old timer wisdom we used was 120 gr triple f and to round balls could get 2 inch grouping in one shot at 130 yards with a 45 cal Kentucky long rifle
No, black powder is measured by volume and then most (but not all) substitutes use a similar volumetric measurement.
A black powder measure is a graduated cylinder (of sorts) it is based on volume, not mass.
kalister1
R.I.P.
Measurements of black powder substitutes
The grain is the traditional measurement of the weight of bullets, black powder, and smokeless powder in English-speaking countries. It is the unit measured by the scales used in handloading; commonly, bullets are measured in increments of one grain, gunpowder in increments of 0.1 grains.[3] There are 7,000 grains in one pound.
Pyrodex, and most other black powder substitutes, are formulated to be a volume-for-volume equivalent of black powder, not an equivalent mass-for-mass (weight-for-weight). Pyrodex is measured by volumetric measurement techniques, not in grains on a scale, due to the difference in density of Pyrodex versus black powder. For example, to measure a "60 grain equivalent" of Hodgdon's Pyrodex suitable for use in a muzzleloader rifle, one uses a volumetric measure that produces a volume of Pyrodex equal to the volume of a mass of 60 grains of black powder. Due to Pyrodex being less dense than black powder, a measurement by weight on a scale of 60 grains of mass of Pyrodex would be near a 30 percent overload.
Volume equivalence is a benefit in loading muzzleloading firearms, traditionally loaded using volumetric measures. This becomes an issue when fabricating black-powder cartridges through handloading using a black-powder substitute in place of black powder, since it is common practice to measure by weight when loading cartridges (there are published conversion tables).
Unlike Pyrodex or Goex Clear Shot, Triple Seven is not a volumetric substitute for black powder. Triple Seven is, volume for volume, more powerful and users should follow load recommendations from the manufacturer.
The grain is the traditional measurement of the weight of bullets, black powder, and smokeless powder in English-speaking countries. It is the unit measured by the scales used in handloading; commonly, bullets are measured in increments of one grain, gunpowder in increments of 0.1 grains.[3] There are 7,000 grains in one pound.
Pyrodex, and most other black powder substitutes, are formulated to be a volume-for-volume equivalent of black powder, not an equivalent mass-for-mass (weight-for-weight). Pyrodex is measured by volumetric measurement techniques, not in grains on a scale, due to the difference in density of Pyrodex versus black powder. For example, to measure a "60 grain equivalent" of Hodgdon's Pyrodex suitable for use in a muzzleloader rifle, one uses a volumetric measure that produces a volume of Pyrodex equal to the volume of a mass of 60 grains of black powder. Due to Pyrodex being less dense than black powder, a measurement by weight on a scale of 60 grains of mass of Pyrodex would be near a 30 percent overload.
Volume equivalence is a benefit in loading muzzleloading firearms, traditionally loaded using volumetric measures. This becomes an issue when fabricating black-powder cartridges through handloading using a black-powder substitute in place of black powder, since it is common practice to measure by weight when loading cartridges (there are published conversion tables).
Unlike Pyrodex or Goex Clear Shot, Triple Seven is not a volumetric substitute for black powder. Triple Seven is, volume for volume, more powerful and users should follow load recommendations from the manufacturer.
amoebicmagician
Samopal Goblin
I just measure by volume, so long as it is black powder or BPS
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