Help Submitting SBR Form 4

ZK308 · Jul 18, 2014

Hey guys, I have a Colt 6921 SBR in my name on a Form 4 that was transfered to me maybe 3 years ago. I now want to transfer this to my trust but I'm still a little unclear on the new laws here in MD. This must be on the handgun roster, which I believe it is, correct? I can't remember if I did a 77r when I originally purchased it, will ATF need a copy of a 77r for this gun in my name submitted along with the Form 4? What all do I need to send to ATF and what address do i send it to? So far I have: 2 copies of the new Form 4, 1 copy of my trust, a check for $200 made out to BATFE. Anything else I should include? Thanks!

ZK308 · Jul 20, 2014

Anyone?

Kingjamez · Jul 20, 2014

Why transfer to your trust?

-Jim

armed ferret · Jul 20, 2014

Kingjamez said:
Why transfer to your trust?

-Jim

For all the same reasons people get trusts?

Kingjamez · Jul 20, 2014

armed ferret said:
For all the same reasons people get trusts?

Respectfully, you don't know his reasons.

A lot of folks think trusts do more than they actually do.

-Jim

armed ferret · Jul 20, 2014

Kingjamez said:
Respectfully, you don't know his reasons.

A lot of folks think trusts do more than they actually do.

-Jim

And neither do you. Obviously he does, and has decided that putting it in the trust is the most beneficial way forward. Who are you to question him on that?

Maybe he may have to travel for work and doesnt want to buy a new safe that nobody else knows the combination to in order to store it. Maybe he wants a good shooting buddy to be able to take it to the range without him having to be present.

Or maybe he bought it before getting a trust and now wants to consolidate his nfa collection into the trust because that's just what the **** he wants to do.

Maybe instead of questioning his motives, helping him would be a better choice.

ZK--whether you need a 77r hinges on OAL of the gun. If it's at least 29", you SHOULDN'T. If it's less, try getting in touch with the dealer you purchased it from and see if they have the 77r. Trust, Schedule A, two copies of the F4, and check for 200 bones should be all you need.

Kingjamez · Jul 20, 2014

armed ferret said:
And neither do you.

Which is why I asked.

-Jim

IMBLITZVT · Jul 21, 2014

Kingjamez said:
Which is why I asked.

-Jim

Seemed like a fair question to me.

rsideout · Jul 21, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
Seemed like a fair question to me.

+1. Promotes an open discussion on the topic.

ZK308 · Jul 21, 2014

OK, easy fellas. All my other NFA toys are in my trust, this is the only one I have that was registered to me. Anyways, I'm really not clear on the 29" OAL rule, could you elaborate a little for me? I believe this is over 29". I thought any SBR had to be considered a handgun in MD, and on the roster, and needed a 77r? I'm fairly certain I didn't have to do a 77r back when I bought it.

swinokur · Jul 21, 2014

MSP recently ruled via an advisory that an SBR is both

handgun-barrel less than 16"-requires an HQL and a 77r for a Form 1'd firearm.
Could also a copycat because it's a centerfire rifle and therefore to be legal and not a copycat firearm it's OAL > 29".

I just got my Form 4 back a few days ago and went up to Engage to do the 77r. I have to wait 7 days to pick it up because MSP says it's a handgun too. I had to put my HQL info on the 77r.

I didn't do a 77r when I bought it (June 2013) because MSP wasn't treating SBR's as handguns at that time. Now you do.
And it has to be on the handgun roster either as a pistol or an SBR. My Engage lower is on the roster so I was good.

ZK308 · Jul 21, 2014

It sounds like if you need a 77r, it is done after getting your F4 back approved? What's he deal then with apps being denied for lack of 77r?

In my situation (over 29" and on the roster as SBR) do I need to do a 77r?

Suppose it was < 29", would it be illegal to transfer? Sorry I these sound like stoopid questions, just having a hard time wrapping my head around all this liberal mumbo jumbo. I mean how did they even come up with this magical # of 29", bingo balls?

swinokur · Jul 21, 2014

Yes-I did my 77r after my F4 came back. BATFE held mine up and asked Engage to send them proof (receipt) I bought my lower pre Oct.1. It shouldn't have mattered because my OAL > 29" but they held it up anyway.

All is good now.

Yes a 77r is required because MSP says it's a handgun.

They won't approve an SBR less <29" because FSA2013 says it's a copycat weapon AND MD statute says it's also a handgun.

Go figure

TheDevilHimself · Jul 21, 2014

The roster board only applies to handguns sold in MD. Yes, SBRs are handguns, but since you already own the SBR, and are simply transferring your lawfully owned property into a trust, then you should not need a 77R. You are not selling it to your trust, just performing a tax paid transfer. Your pending SBR transfer that I have will require a 77R, once your stamp comes back. So then you get to wait an additional 7 days.
If you want to drop by this week, I can take a look over your form 4 before you send it out. Just copy the information from section 4a-h as it reads on your current Form 4. Then fill out the following:box 2a.- this should be your trust name & address, 2b. county, box 3a. should be your name & address, 3b. your telephone number. Sign box 10, print your name & title(e.g. trustee) in box 11, and date box 12.

Just to avoid any confusion, you may want to include a copy of your original form 4 (which provides proof that you owned it prior to 10/1/13) and a brief note explaining such.

anderson76 · Jul 21, 2014

OP, your question presents interesting issues.

Your SBR, when in SBR configuration, is a regulated firearm. As you are aware, a “transfer” (within the meaning of MD law) must be done on a 77r for purposes of complying with state law. So the question becomes whether placing this firearm “in trust” amounts to a transfer under MD law?

The issue has been discussed in some detail here:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=134730

Under MD law a trust arises when a grantor splits ownership of property into 2 parts – a legal interests & an equitable interest. The grantor transfers legal title to the property to the trustee who agrees to hold the property for the benefit of a beneficiary (the beneficiary is said to have equitable ownership of the property). Under MD law a trust is NOT a “distinct legal entity” as some around here like to claim. It does NOT own property. The legal owner of trust property is the trustee.

So how does this all work in your typical gun trust arrangement? You the grantor, will transfer legal title of the property, to yourself, in your capacity as trustee, and as trustee, you agree to manage the property for the benefit of the beneficiary (which may or may not also be you).

So if you want to place that SBR in trust, you will transfer legal title from yourself, to yourself, in your capacity as trustee. Does this require a 77R to be legal? I don’t know. Prior to SB281 this was, IMO, largely and academic exercise for the following reasons: (1) BATF was not asking for 77Rs, and (2) I could not image a scenario under which an ASA would prosecute you for the unlawful transfer of a regulated firearm from yourself to yourself.

Back to your situation. From what people are reporting, there is a chance that BATF will want to see a 77R to the trustee. However, I don’t know if anyone has been able to get MSP to go along with this kind of transfer.

TheDevilHimself · Jul 22, 2014

anderson76 said:
OP, your question presents interesting issues.

Your SBR, when in SBR configuration, is a regulated firearm. As you are aware, a “transfer” (within the meaning of MD law) must be done on a 77r for purposes of complying with state law. So the question becomes whether placing this firearm “in trust” amounts to a transfer under MD law?

The issue has been discussed in some detail here:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=134730

Under MD law a trust arises when a grantor splits ownership of property into 2 parts – a legal interests & an equitable interest. The grantor transfers legal title to the property to the trustee who agrees to hold the property for the benefit of a beneficiary (the beneficiary is said to have equitable ownership of the property). Under MD law a trust is NOT a “distinct legal entity” as some around here like to claim. It does NOT own property. The legal owner of trust property is the trustee.

So how does this all work in your typical gun trust arrangement? You the grantor, will transfer legal title of the property, to yourself, in your capacity as trustee, and as trustee, you agree to manage the property for the benefit of the beneficiary (which may or may not also be you).

So if you want to place that SBR in trust, you will transfer legal title from yourself, to yourself, in your capacity as trustee. Does this require a 77R to be legal? I don’t know. Prior to SB281 this was, IMO, largely and academic exercise for the following reasons: (1) BATF was not asking for 77Rs, and (2) I could not image a scenario under which an ASA would prosecute you for the unlawful transfer of a regulated firearm from yourself to yourself.

Back to your situation. From what people are reporting, there is a chance that BATF will want to see a 77R to the trustee. However, I don’t know if anyone has been able to get MSP to go along with this kind of transfer.

You make some excellent points. Situations will certainly arise where there never was a 77R, nor should there be one required for legal transfer. I know quite a few people who relocated to MD and lawfully brought their NFA items with them well before the 77R even existed...

IMBLITZVT · Jul 22, 2014

TheDevilHimself said:
... I know quite a few people who relocated to MD and lawfully brought their NFA items with them well before the 77R even existed...

Yes, that would not be an issue. There is no transfer going on there, just a change of address.

However it might be a problem if a host gun is involved post SB281.

We really just need to sue MSP and get SB281 back out of the NFA rules. I don't think they have a legal leg to stand on.

TheDevilHimself · Jul 22, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
Yes, that would not be an issue. There is no transfer going on there, just a change of address.

However it might be a problem if a host gun is involved post SB281.

We really just need to sue MSP and get SB281 back out of the NFA rules. I don't think they have a legal leg to stand on.

Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear about the potential situation I was envisioning. If an individual who moved to MD in 1986 brought his MGs, DDs, & SBRs with him, then set up a trust in July of 2014, will the NFA branch expect him to provide a copy of a 77R for firearms he has been in lawful possession of for almost 30 years?

I think it is rather preposterous. I agree, a lawsuit is necessary.

IMBLITZVT · Jul 23, 2014

TheDevilHimself said:
Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear about the potential situation I was envisioning. If an individual who moved to MD in 1986 brought his MGs, DDs, & SBRs with him, then set up a trust in July of 2014, will the NFA branch expect him to provide a copy of a 77R for firearms he has been in lawful possession of for almost 30 years?

I think it is rather preposterous. I agree, a lawsuit is necessary.

Oh I see. Yeah I can't really say but I don't see how he could provide one.

When it all settles I will talk to the AGC more about moving in that direction.

Help Submitting SBR Form 4

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