Post-86 Machineguns legal for Trusts?

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  • armed ferret

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Sep 23, 2008
    7,943
    McDoogal's
    If the letter is over ten words, then it cannot be produced in MD. (Do you even know ten words?) :D

    I know seven. That oughta get him started. Eight, actually. Carlin's famous seven, plus "purpledildo".
     

    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    Post dealer samples are dirt cheap while pre-86 ones remain inflated because under the current understanding of the law they are the only transferable ones. If post-86 guns are legal for trusts (which I doubt)...then the market tanks. How much? Well, post dealer samples will likely experience a higher market equilibrium while transferable machine guns will experience a lower market equilibrium for sure. How much? Not sure, but I'd expect somewhere around late 90s prices.

    Post dealer samples won't change. Post dealers get them right from the factory, and it still is going to cost them the same amount to make.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Getting the 200 back is the 200 dollar question... In all honesty, that is what is holding me back from doing this exact thing right now.

    I have actually cancelled a stamp before and my Dealer did get the $200 back. Of Course then Christian Soldier then screwed me out of it! Flat out stealing $100 of it and told me so to my face. However if you are not dealing with a Crook like Rob, yeah you will get your money back.

    Post dealer samples are dirt cheap while pre-86 ones remain inflated because under the current understanding of the law they are the only transferable ones. If post-86 guns are legal for trusts (which I doubt)...then the market tanks. How much? Well, post dealer samples will likely experience a higher market equilibrium while transferable machine guns will experience a lower market equilibrium for sure. How much? Not sure, but I'd expect somewhere around late 90s prices.

    You have pre May and post May dealers samples. Pre May can only be bought by SOTs however no LEO letter is needed to buy them and they can be kept after the owner gives up his FFL/SOT. However they can not be sold to an Individual at any time. These guns tend to run at about 75% of transferables. Post May are the cheap ones as they require a LEO letter even for the SOT to buy. They must also be given up/sold when the SOT is given up. They are the ones at "going rate" not inflated by the gun laws. The only other way to get a Post may, which we call post samples, is to build your own gun on a Form 1 or 2 depending if you are an individual or SOT.

    So if you are going to do this, you are probably going to have to form 1 this and build your own MG. As no SOT is going to waste his time with it unless its for him.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Just lobbing a form 1 at the BATFE isn't going to work - they'll deny it out of hand. The place where you might have success is suing them over it, and that's going to cost you serious big boy dollars.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Post dealer samples are dirt cheap while pre-86 ones remain inflated because under the current understanding of the law they are the only transferable ones. If post-86 guns are legal for trusts (which I doubt)...then the market tanks. How much? Well, post dealer samples will likely experience a higher market equilibrium while transferable machine guns will experience a lower market equilibrium for sure. How much? Not sure, but I'd expect somewhere around late 90s prices.


    If they are legal for trusts you can just have your AR lower drilled and put in a FA part's kit. I wouldn't even buy a dealer sample. I'd pay the tax, and pay a smith to drill a hole.......
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,644
    MoCo
    ^ this. You could built FA ARs, AKs, HKs, etc in your garage as easy as you can build a semi.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    If they are legal for trusts you can just have your AR lower drilled and put in a FA part's kit. I wouldn't even buy a dealer sample. I'd pay the tax, and pay a smith to drill a hole.......

    Well not really...

    First you would have to drill the hole or the smith would be creating the MG and have to form 4 it to you.

    As far as the post sample, even SOTs are required to get a letter from the LEO that they want a demonstration or they can't get it. Dealers just can't start shopping a menu of post samples, make a call and have it shipped. So even if it was legal for a Trust to get a post sample, you would have to make your own on a form 1. That would pretty much be the only path.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    If they are legal for trusts you can just have your AR lower drilled and put in a FA part's kit. I wouldn't even buy a dealer sample. I'd pay the tax, and pay a smith to drill a hole.......

    ^ this. You could built FA ARs, AKs, HKs, etc in your garage as easy as you can build a semi.

    Actually in most cases, a FA gun is much easier to build as many of the semi auto designs require lots of modifications to get them to be classified as semi auto only. Also no 922r, so not sourcing US made parts. MGs would be much easier then semi autos.

    However its really just a pipe dream...
     

    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    Well not really...

    First you would have to drill the hole or the smith would be creating the MG and have to form 4 it to you.

    As far as the post sample, even SOTs are required to get a letter from the LEO that they want a demonstration or they can't get it. Dealers just can't start shopping a menu of post samples, make a call and have it shipped. So even if it was legal for a Trust to get a post sample, you would have to make your own on a form 1. That would pretty much be the only path.

    Not if you they get the manufacturer SOT.

    Or get lucky and find a dealer not renewing/getting rid of their license.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Not if you they get the manufacturer SOT.

    Or get lucky and find a dealer not renewing/getting rid of their license.
    You may be thinking of pre-86 dealer samples. Even FFL07s with SOTs need LEO letters for a post-86 machinegun.

    I suspect this is why you see a lot of SOTs in certain areas - because the county sheriff loves shooting modern MGs and doesn't mind writing a few LEO letters.
     

    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    You may be thinking of pre-86 dealer samples. Even FFL07s with SOTs need LEO letters for a post-86 machinegun.

    I suspect this is why you see a lot of SOTs in certain areas - because the county sheriff loves shooting modern MGs and doesn't mind writing a few LEO letters.

    You sure about that? I thought the whole point of a manufacturer license was so that you can make your own guns. I highly doubt Beretta needs a demo letter to make a new machine gun prototype.

    I know for a fact that FF07s don't need demo letters when buying from a dealer who is giving up their license. I see one of these every month or so on subguns.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    You sure about that? I thought the whole point of a manufacturer license was so that you can make your own guns. I highly doubt Beretta needs a demo letter to make a new machine gun prototype.
    The discussion was about TRANSFERRING machineguns. Yeah, you can build all of the ones you want with an 07 SOT, but you can't just buy them off a catalog or from another dealer.

    I know for a fact that FF07s don't need demo letters when buying from a dealer who is giving up their license. I see one of these every month or so on subguns.
    Ah, well, this may be true.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Not if you they get the manufacturer SOT.

    Or get lucky and find a dealer not renewing/getting rid of their license.

    If you are an SOT, then this hole discussion is meaningless as you can make post samples.

    That is true on the none-renewing SOT and I guess would be a good point. However that also increases the price a bit.

    You may be thinking of pre-86 dealer samples. Even FFL07s with SOTs need LEO letters for a post-86 machinegun.

    I suspect this is why you see a lot of SOTs in certain areas - because the county sheriff loves shooting modern MGs and doesn't mind writing a few LEO letters.

    Yes, they can make their own without a LEO Letter as Eric pointed out. However I do think they might be limited to one of each model or something like that. I don't know that much about that area as it really does not concern me that much.

    Yes a buddy as Sheriff would certainly make being a SOT a lot easier and fun!
     

    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    The discussion was about TRANSFERRING machineguns. Yeah, you can build all of the ones you want with an 07 SOT, but you can't just buy them off a catalog or from another dealer.


    Ah, well, this may be true.

    Ah I misunderstood, I thought at that point were just discussing legalities of the SOT.
     

    tc617

    USN Sub Vet
    Jan 12, 2012
    2,287
    Yuma, Arizona
    Actually in most cases, a FA gun is much easier to build as many of the semi auto designs require lots of modifications to get them to be classified as semi auto only. Also no 922r, so not sourcing US made parts. MGs would be much easier then semi autos.

    However its really just a pipe dream...
    +1

    If you had an approved Form 1 to build a full auto AK, it requires nothing more than a dremil and a drill bit.

    Every AK parts kit that I have includes the auto trigger set, rate reducer, and third axis pin. If you modify a set of rails; Use the original set included in the parts kit as a template, and order a full auto drilling jig, you have everything needed to build a full auto AK. It's not rocket science.

    http://www.ftfindustries.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FI&Product_Code=AK47fix&Category_Code=DF
     

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    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    If you are an SOT, then this hole discussion is meaningless as you can make post samples.

    That is true on the none-renewing SOT and I guess would be a good point. However that also increases the price a bit.



    Yes, they can make their own without a LEO Letter as Eric pointed out. However I do think they might be limited to one of each model or something like that. I don't know that much about that area as it really does not concern me that much.

    Yes a buddy as Sheriff would certainly make being a SOT a lot easier and fun!

    I thought Dennis has his manufacturer SOT and builds his own full auto AKs. I remember shooting his AMD (wooden vertical grip) post sample that he made, and could have sworn he said he had made a bunch more.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    I thought Dennis has his manufacturer SOT and builds his own full auto AKs. I remember shooting his AMD (wooden vertical grip) post sample that he made, and could have sworn he said he had made a bunch more.

    AK but I don't know of AKs. Yes the AMD65. He has a few more.

    ...
    Here is an ad right here for a dealer giving up his license, no demo letter needed for C2s. It probably allowed to help dealers get rid of their inventory on time.

    Yeah I do think this is why they did it. Probably sick of sending agents out to confirm demils.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    ...
    Going to the range with your buddy and shooting his rifle would be a violation of that condition. Your buddy still owns the gun and would be responsible for transferring it, but once it's in your hands, you "possess" it.

    Sorry, that is not correct. Its been gone over time and time again. Look up the meaning of Possess:

    pos·sess
    verb
    1.have as belonging to one; own.

    Simply handling a firearm is not possession. For you to possess it, you must at least be the one "in charge" of it. So your buddy taking your MG to the range without you there may be considered to have him in possession. However the simple act of holding something does not mean you are in possession of it. This has been confirmed by the ATF and NFA owners constantly let others use there NFA items with them present.

    If you were to manufacture a new FA firearm, even under the authority of your trust, as soon as you put the last piece in, bam, you are "in possession" of a post-86 machine gun.

    Only in MD. The ATF considers it a MG once the hunk of steel goes beyond a certain point and is considered a receiver. Constructive possession comes in to play too. Only state laws requires the gun to be capable of firing more than one round to be considered a MG. So in MD a dewatted federal registered MG is not considered a MG in MD as it can not fire. Not really your point but...

    I imagine the only possible exception would be an FFL who is authorized to manufacture these firearms anyway...and they are not allowed to have them for personal use. And most FFLs that would have that authority are likely full-on corporations, not unincorporated trusts.

    Well if the FFL/SOT is an exception then how could a Trust not fall under the same law? Where is the FFL/SOT exemption in what you quoted? How does one define personal use? You get into thought crime? If a FFL/SOT takes a gun how to shoot, he does not have to define it as company business... There are plenty of small time FFL/SOTs that work out of their houses.

    "If BATFE's interpretation is held up legally, and a trust is "not a person", then a trust does NOT have a right to keep and bear arms under 2A."

    This is just over thinking 2A. Its completely a moot point because if the are follow 2A, then the person has a right to own the MG to begin with and so who cares if the business does too. In otherwords, getting into the argument over 2A protections for companies makes no difference since the Government has already violated this when it comes to individuals...

    ...which means the State could potentially make it illegal for trusts to own firearms, or even seize firearms from unincorporated trusts without due process of law.

    No not really, because again its a moot point. They must hold to the constitution too. So again if we are following 2A, individuals can own MGs and all these laws are unconstitutional.

    Now...do we want to go down this "not a person" road??

    Seems to me that the Government is playing lawyer's games making an end run around the Constitution. So there is no loss in not playing the game back...
     

    ericoak

    don't drop Aboma on me
    Feb 20, 2010
    6,806
    Howard County
    We're talking about making a machine gun. That's a Type 7 FFL with Class 2, or a Type 10 FFL. BATFE is not going to issue you one of those so you can build guns for yourself...you have to be a legitimate business.

    I would love to see their legal justification for denying me a SOT if I follow all the laws. Who are they to say who is allowed to design prototype firearms? Only big established firearm companies? Gatson Glock used to design pots and pans in his garage before creating the Glock 17.
     

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