"Two to the chest, one to the head" Really?

ProShooter · Jan 4, 2012

I was taught the body armor drill years ago in LE, and I have seen other instructors teach it to civilians in courses that I've either been in, or observed. I think the civilian students think they're being taught something cool and tactical. I'm not sure of the instructor's reasons for teaching it.

I for one, do not teach it to civilians for a number of reasons....

mercop · Jan 4, 2012

Having been involved in a shooting and talked to many others who have, some who are very close friends, I don't believe that during a spontaneous shooting within seven yards you can fire two to the chest, and then say to yourself he is not stopping I better fire a round at his head, or while you and the BG are both moving fire two to the chest and one to the head right away using your sights. Maybe it could be done if either you or the bag guy were standing still.

As I have covered before the armed citizen is not very likely to get the opportunity to "draw down" on a bad guy and issue verbal commands. It is more likely that their rounds will be fired right after they clear the holster.

I explain it like this- look at the human body as a highway with three exits taking you to Survival Town. The first is the pelvic girdle, second is the chest, the third is the head. If you concentrate on the chest, and the head, and miss your exits you will have to turn around.

Instead I advocate shooting one handed as soon as the barrel of the gun gets between you and the threat. These first rounds because of the rising of the gun will most likely first strike the upper legs and pelvic girdle. This causes what I call a ballistic ball tap. It forces the chest and head forward making your COM bigger. It may also allow subsequent rounds to hit the top of the head, behind the clavicle, and as they continue forward the spine.

This is accomplished with minimal training and provides the shooter with a better ability to move than rushing to a two handed grip which tends to glue them in place, or if they move it is usually straight back into unknown territory.- George

Name Taken · Jan 4, 2012

mercop said:
Having been involved in a shooting and talked to many others who have, some who are very close friends, I don't believe that during a spontaneous shooting within seven yards you can fire two to the chest, and then say to yourself he is not stopping I better fire a round at his head, or while you and the BG are both moving fire two to the chest and one to the head right away using your sights. Maybe it could be done if either you or the bag guy were standing still.

As I have covered before the armed citizen is not very likely to get the opportunity to "draw down" on a bad guy and issue verbal commands. It is more likely that their rounds will be fired right after they clear the holster.

I explain it like this- look at the human body as a highway with three exits taking you to Survival Town. The first is the pelvic girdle, second is the chest, the third is the head. If you concentrate on the chest, and the head, and miss your exits you will have to turn around.

Instead I advocate shooting one handed as soon as the barrel of the gun gets between you and the threat. These first rounds because of the rising of the gun will most likely first strike the upper legs and pelvic girdle. This causes what I call a ballistic ball tap. It forces the chest and head forward making your COM bigger. It may also allow subsequent rounds to hit the top of the head, behind the clavicle, and as they continue forward the spine.

This is accomplished with minimal training and provides the shooter with a better ability to move than rushing to a two handed grip which tends to glue them in place, or if they move it is usually straight back into unknown territory.- George

That make sense.

Like I suggested...unless it's a contact shot or VERY VERY close I have no ideas that I'm capable of hitting something small and moving like a human head.

I think it's good to get the mind thinking instead of the typical "fire 2 rounds in 4 seconds" and reholster stuff like many security company's and police departments do. It gets your firing, thinking, and aiming instead of putting the tool away after 2 rounds.

I'd also question the hit ratio of someone trying that drill with SIMS or airsoft on a moving target with force on force stress induced.

Dogabutila · Jan 4, 2012

Huckleberry said:
Yo, Dog I like the way you think. Beat me by a minute

Great Minds Think Alike

I left to go shooting just after I posted this, didn't see yours. But yes, Great minds.

Name Taken said:
I'd also question the hit ratio of someone trying that drill with SIMS or airsoft on a moving target with force on force stress induced.

If you do airsoft FoF enough you can get proficient to hit moving heads pretty easily. It takes a /lot/ of practice. It's easier in airsoft though because the triggers are lighter. That and I've done it so much that I'm pretty much inoculated to the stress and I don't feel it anymore. But, it is possible if you spend about 10 hours a week for a few years after work practicing it. I'm pretty sure I can only do it in airsoft though because the triggers are that much easier.

Hit and Run · Jan 4, 2012

I have done that drill on military ranges. I think I would be firing more at center mass in real situation if it came to that and save head shot for last resort if perp was able to keep coming. I do think it is a good reflex drill though if you can master it.

As for any litigation...that's what I was trained to do! In stressed environment my relfex was based on my training... That would be my story and I'm sticking too it!

Huckleberry · Jan 4, 2012

The man you really need to study is Col Rex Applegate and his Point Shooting training.

Bob Tuley has a good site dedicate to Point Shooting and features Applegate, Jordan, Gregg and others.

Also, if you never read Applegate's "Kill or Get Killed" then you could be making a fatal mistake.

http://www.bobtuley.com/pointshooting.htm

Kilroy · Jan 4, 2012

I have no way of knowing, because I haven't done force-on-force training, but I think my reaction to a lethal threat would be to shoot as fast as possible into the threat until I'm not being shot at anymore.
I don't think the 2 to the body, assess the reaction, then 1 to the head would work in real life. If we use the OODA model of thinking to analyze it, when you shoot your first shot, you are in the Act part of the OODA loop. Transitioning to a head shot requires you to start back at the beginning, which could be fatal in a high-speed, close range gunfight. A better strategy would be to walk the rounds up the opponents body, which would accomplish a similar effect, and not require assessment of the situation while bullets are still airborne.

cowboy321 · Jan 4, 2012

racinghoss said:
Good post.

As of 1995, the USMC Security Forces school taught this. I think my instructors coined it the "Failure to Stop Drill". They even went so far as to tell us to drop to a knee if possible for the head shot. We ran hundreds of drills on the range. It is simply a marksmanship and training tool; although it could be useful when you have an armored/PCP'd/etc bad guy closing in on you and/or your post. We trained lots of different marksmanship and reaction drills, this was just one of many.

Military and combat training is different than using deadly force in Maryland. In combat it was not odd to see a VC,NVA with 50 extra Holes in him after he was face down. But his parents never sued you in a Maryland Court. This scenario, which I find odd, has a bad guy with a knife who is the threat. I would do everything I could do avoid pulling the trigger. Intimidation would seem to work by brandishing. If some miscreant entered my house armed, call the morgue. He is filled with lead if at all possible.. And quite legally, of course...

FrankOceanXray · Jan 4, 2012

center of mass being the best target in the sense it is the widest part typically, less chance to miss and they can be effective. MSGT Paul Howe taught CM too but with a very skinny target. Idea here is to aim for CM and strive for a smaller section which would sever the spine, eliminate the CHU.

I agree with CM for those reasons.

Body armor is what I see the headshot in training for. Or even now the pelvis. Again, a likely unprotected area that is still wide enough to hit and a bullet bouncing around in your pelvis would do the trick.

Shoot until the threat ceases.

to train with different focus points I can agree with for the above mentioned reasons, it also gets your brain thinking during the drill. Ideally, the two shots may provide time to assess the need for further shooting? Thinking is good BUT in an encounter thinking doesn't happen as easily. Perhaps the experienced vets can speak more to that.

I can say this, in that encounter your eyes will be open, you will revert to the most basic level of your training, auditory blockage/limited and hyper-awareness. Like could feel the circular grooves of the safety on my 870....each and every one of them.

bluedog46 · Jan 4, 2012

I do two to the body one to the head in pracice at the range alot, but I have been told to take my first and last shots just by drawing the weapon and aiming for the body since a self defense shoot will be nothing like shooting paper. With shots to the body if have a bigger targer.

steves1911 · Jan 4, 2012

The USAF still trains all its SF to to fire the M9 this way. Or atleast they still were when i got out in Nov 2010. I still practice this way and it could come in handy for going up against body armor or someone on pcp.

Af_catfish · Jan 4, 2012

2ndCharter said:
This is the stuff urban legends are made of. I heard the same thing about a decade before the Security Forces got their new name. Who knows though, it might have some truth to it or it could be concocted to drill a point home in training.

So here's a good question that relates to your post and that of the original poster. Regardless of the training you've received, civilian or on the job, what are the opportunities created for civil action by not following the training methodology you have received. For instance, if a specific defensive class teaches double-tap COM and you've taken this course and none other. At some point in the future you get into a situation where you are forced to defend yourself and you either don't double-tap (3+ or worse, until empty) or rounds stray off COM. I'm sure some of it can be explained away from a moving, aggressive individual vs. paper at 15m, but think about this. Could you be accountable for not following your training?

I know, battered gun owner's syndrome....

That's what I figured. Urban legends are some of the best stories.
I think that firing at COM is understandable. When a threat presents itself that you have to engage common knowledge is to fire COM. The round count could matter if it's what a "reasonable" person may deem excessive. Or if you fire after the threat is neutralized. If the BG is still being a threat you should be alright to keep firing. The problem is with the headshot. Some may see that as intentionally trying to kill the BG. Like shooting them in the chest isn't fatal. Since I've been trained to do it that way I have a reason why I did it that way. If they ask why you didn't try for the head you could reasonably say that you felt like you would be more successful aiming COM.
The legal minefield of today's 2A situation has led to battered gun owner's syndrome. You're not alone, it's a big club.

racinghoss · Jan 4, 2012

cowboy321 said:
Military and combat training is different than using deadly force in Maryland. In combat it was not odd to see a VC,NVA with 50 extra Holes in him after he was face down. But his parents never sued you in a Maryland Court. This scenario, which I find odd, has a bad guy with a knife who is the threat. I would do everything I could do avoid pulling the trigger. Intimidation would seem to work by brandishing. If some miscreant entered my house armed, call the morgue. He is filled with lead if at all possible.. And quite legally, of course...

I understand the situation. I also understand the consequences of a DLP kill. That being said, if I have already made 2 shots at center mass on an assailant and he is still an active threat; I am really not worried about what Mr. Assailant's mommy will think about me after I canoe his head.

Billcw · Jan 4, 2012

I have to teach the body armour drill for the ICE course .. oh the fun

zombiehunter · Jan 5, 2012

Anytime I hear this or hear someone say it all I can think is what I'd actually do in an SD situation. I'm blessed with a remarkable sense of reality.

I KNOW if something were to happen I'd shoot at whatever part of them I saw until I saw it stop moving or ran out of bullets. I KNOW I'm going to miss a good deal and I KNOW I'm not going to leave my bedroom unless my cat has ventured from my side. These are things I know. I also know that at SD range I can point-shoot into a man-sized target enough of the time where I feel proficient. I know that in an SD situation I'm not going to have time to line up, get sight picture, get my feet placed and be perfect. If I have that much time I probably don't need to shoot them.

So no, 2:1 can bite me. Maybe some day in/day out trained SEAL with a body count can do it, but in the real world as long as my kitty and I walk away I don't much care where the bullets go.

zombiehunter · Jan 5, 2012

And yes, I have an odd attachment to my cat and yes I've been drinking again

cowboy321 · Jan 5, 2012

racinghoss said:
Good post.

As of 1995, the USMC Security Forces school taught this. I think my instructors coined it the "Failure to Stop Drill". They even went so far as to tell us to drop to a knee if possible for the head shot. We ran hundreds of drills on the range. It is simply a marksmanship and training tool; although it could be useful when you have an armored/PCP'd/etc bad guy closing in on you and/or your post. We trained lots of different marksmanship and reaction drills, this was just one of many.

racinghoss said:
I understand the situation. I also understand the consequences of a DLP kill. That being said, if I have already made 2 shots at center mass on an assailant and he is still an active threat; I am really not worried about what Mr. Assailant's mommy will think about me after I canoe his head.

I would sure avoid using a firearm on a human being in a parking lot unless he has a firearm or at least a sword. Try everything possible to avoid ruining your life. Lethal force is really a very rare and extreme measure taken by CCW holders in Md or elsewhere.

Huckleberry · Jan 5, 2012

cowboy321 said:
I would sure avoid using a firearm on a human being in a parking lot unless he has a firearm or at least a sword. Try everything possible to avoid ruining your life. Lethal force is really a very rare and extreme measure taken by CCW holders in Md or elsewhere.

Ever do the Tueller Drill?

A knife wielding attacker stands 21 FEET from you. On your signal the attacker will charge you while you attempt to draw and fire your pistol(Red Gun or Airsoft, of course) at the attacker.

How long do you think it takes the average person to cover the 7 yards to you?

About 1.5 Seconds on Average depending on the physical condition of the attacker. Some drill times I have seen have been as fast as 1.2 seconds.

Now, how long does a knife have to be to produce a fatal stab wound? Puncture wound to the heart being the obvious

Go ahead and look that one up so you can see why your statement about a sword wielding attacker is ridiculous and could cost you your life if you continue to operate with such a mindset.

FrankOceanXray · Jan 5, 2012

^ Agree. If there is a threat, it will be dealt wth accordingly. Scissors can kill you just as well.. ice pick.... what if that item is contaminated with HIV? Hep C? etc.... present a real threat to me and I promise I will deal with it accordingly.

zombiehunter · Jan 5, 2012

FrankOceanXray said:
^ Agree. If there is a threat, it will be dealt wth accordingly. Scissors can kill you just as well.. ice pick.... what if that item is contaminated with AIDS? HIV? Hep C? etc.... present a real threat to me and I promise I will deal with it accordingly.

Not to nitpick but one cannot be infected with AIDS. You first get HIV which left untreated, or treated long enough, eventually wears down your immune system until you get some other disease which marks you as having full blown AIDS.

It doesn't take away from your point (heh pun) but I thought in this place that is full of clip/mag debate the difference would be appreciated

"Two to the chest, one to the head" Really?

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