If your in a fight your tactics failed.
Would a fillet knife be a good self defense knife?
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If your in a fight your tactics failed.
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,252
If the only two knives in your kitcjken are fillet and bread , you need more knives , if only for actual cooking.
Old Hickory butcher knives. Made with 1095 carbon steel ( old school , but decent steel , same as USMC KaBar ). The 7in is $12.50 msrp , the 10in and 14in are +/- $25 .
Old Hickory butcher knives. Made with 1095 carbon steel ( old school , but decent steel , same as USMC KaBar ). The 7in is $12.50 msrp , the 10in and 14in are +/- $25 .
cb51
Active Member
The human body is a thin skinned delicate container of meat and fluid. Almost anything will penetrate and kill/disable. It's done in prison with sharpened toothbrushes all the time. But we're talking sneak attack there. I suppose that if you were caught naked in your kitchen, and a bread knife was on the counter, it would work.
The question is, how good is any knife for defense?
You have to question who you are going to be using it on, and where, and if they are also armed with a knife. Here in the Peoples Republik Of Maryland, I am pretty sure if you use a knife on an unarmed person, you are going to be in a cell with 'bubba.' Unless there is some huge disparity of force, like you're a small female or very old senior citizen or partly disabled, and your attacker is a young big strong guy. Get in a fight and pull a knife and stab someone, and your lawyer will own you for the next 30 years. Plus, a knife has almost zero shock effect unlike a gun, baseball bat, ax handle, frying pan, jack handle, shovel, iron fireplace poker, large creasing wrench, ball peen hammer, beer pitcher, or any other solid object used to bludgeon.
Unlike a gun, you'll have to repeatedly stab/slash the attacker to stop the attack. By then, "they" will make you look like the modern day Jack The Ripper maniac. Keep in mind, the inmates are running the asylum these days, and if you don't believe it, just look at what George Zimmerman has went through just shooting some guy once that was on top of him beating his brains in. He'll never live long enough to enjoy any kind of live. His attorney bill is seven figures. And that was in Florida with a stand your ground law. What do you think will happen to you, stabbing some attacker a half dozen or more times?
And just what are you going to say to justify having a fillet knife on you? Going fishing?
Yes, a fillet knife will kill someone. I saw the aftermath once. It wasn't pretty. And the stabber went off to the state pen for many years. If he'd just clobbered him with something, all would have been well. Nobody has any sympathy for a perp with a broken arm and jaw. But a dead perp becomes a golden choir boy, and was loved by his grandma.
Forget the knives, they will just get you deeper in the poop. I can't think of any situation where pulling a knife is going to help.
I've got an admission to make here. I once was the street punk that most of you take up arms against. By the the I was in my late teens, I had friends that were either in jail, or dead. My dad got taken out of life early, and I ran the streets and fell in with a very bad crowd. I sure as hell am not proud of the way my life was in those days, or some of the things I did. One of my closest mentors was a guy named Ray. Ray had been in prison in both Ohio and Maryland. He "trained" me for the street. And he didn't like knives. When I knew him, Ray was close to 40, had some interesting scars, and when I asked him once about them, he said they were from when he was young and stupid and thought carrying a knife was cool. He survived to get older and smarter. He swore by impact weapons. His favorite was a blackjack, (they were legal then) or his Irish shillelagh walking stick. He'd sometimes have a crescent wrench in a back pocket, and a ball peen hammer under the seat of his car. I saw him use both, and the effect was immediate.
By contrast, though, real knife fight I witnessed made me promise myself to never even carry a knife that could actually be pressed into service as a weapon. The two young idiots carved each other up over an argument over a baggie of pot that one thought was 'light'. One died on the scene, the other was almost dead. The pavement had to be hosed off there was that much blood. If the other guy has a knife, pulling one of your own is about the dumbest thing you can do. You will now be in a knife fight. Just run. Put anything solid between you and the knife and retreat. Sofa cushion, bar stool, trash can lid, the whole trash can, anything. Unlike a gun the knife can't hurt you if it's blocked from touching you. Block and retreat. Live to love another day.
Eventutrally I enlisted in the army and went strait, serving 4 years and getting an honorable discharge. But I keep in mind what I learned from Ray, and practice what he preached to me. And I thank God that I was a faster runner than many of my fellow punks, and somehow got away with a clean record. Just didn't get caught doing what we were doing.
Carry a stick, pepper spray, wrench or anything but a knife. Or do like I am, and move to a state where you can practice your second amendment rights. My house is ob the market and we're moving to Texas. Leave the knives to the punks who think a knife is cool. Yeah, I couldn't clean my fish or go camping without a knife, but of I need a weapon, I pick up something to bash with.
The question is, how good is any knife for defense?
You have to question who you are going to be using it on, and where, and if they are also armed with a knife. Here in the Peoples Republik Of Maryland, I am pretty sure if you use a knife on an unarmed person, you are going to be in a cell with 'bubba.' Unless there is some huge disparity of force, like you're a small female or very old senior citizen or partly disabled, and your attacker is a young big strong guy. Get in a fight and pull a knife and stab someone, and your lawyer will own you for the next 30 years. Plus, a knife has almost zero shock effect unlike a gun, baseball bat, ax handle, frying pan, jack handle, shovel, iron fireplace poker, large creasing wrench, ball peen hammer, beer pitcher, or any other solid object used to bludgeon.
Unlike a gun, you'll have to repeatedly stab/slash the attacker to stop the attack. By then, "they" will make you look like the modern day Jack The Ripper maniac. Keep in mind, the inmates are running the asylum these days, and if you don't believe it, just look at what George Zimmerman has went through just shooting some guy once that was on top of him beating his brains in. He'll never live long enough to enjoy any kind of live. His attorney bill is seven figures. And that was in Florida with a stand your ground law. What do you think will happen to you, stabbing some attacker a half dozen or more times?
And just what are you going to say to justify having a fillet knife on you? Going fishing?
Yes, a fillet knife will kill someone. I saw the aftermath once. It wasn't pretty. And the stabber went off to the state pen for many years. If he'd just clobbered him with something, all would have been well. Nobody has any sympathy for a perp with a broken arm and jaw. But a dead perp becomes a golden choir boy, and was loved by his grandma.
Forget the knives, they will just get you deeper in the poop. I can't think of any situation where pulling a knife is going to help.
I've got an admission to make here. I once was the street punk that most of you take up arms against. By the the I was in my late teens, I had friends that were either in jail, or dead. My dad got taken out of life early, and I ran the streets and fell in with a very bad crowd. I sure as hell am not proud of the way my life was in those days, or some of the things I did. One of my closest mentors was a guy named Ray. Ray had been in prison in both Ohio and Maryland. He "trained" me for the street. And he didn't like knives. When I knew him, Ray was close to 40, had some interesting scars, and when I asked him once about them, he said they were from when he was young and stupid and thought carrying a knife was cool. He survived to get older and smarter. He swore by impact weapons. His favorite was a blackjack, (they were legal then) or his Irish shillelagh walking stick. He'd sometimes have a crescent wrench in a back pocket, and a ball peen hammer under the seat of his car. I saw him use both, and the effect was immediate.
By contrast, though, real knife fight I witnessed made me promise myself to never even carry a knife that could actually be pressed into service as a weapon. The two young idiots carved each other up over an argument over a baggie of pot that one thought was 'light'. One died on the scene, the other was almost dead. The pavement had to be hosed off there was that much blood. If the other guy has a knife, pulling one of your own is about the dumbest thing you can do. You will now be in a knife fight. Just run. Put anything solid between you and the knife and retreat. Sofa cushion, bar stool, trash can lid, the whole trash can, anything. Unlike a gun the knife can't hurt you if it's blocked from touching you. Block and retreat. Live to love another day.
Eventutrally I enlisted in the army and went strait, serving 4 years and getting an honorable discharge. But I keep in mind what I learned from Ray, and practice what he preached to me. And I thank God that I was a faster runner than many of my fellow punks, and somehow got away with a clean record. Just didn't get caught doing what we were doing.
Carry a stick, pepper spray, wrench or anything but a knife. Or do like I am, and move to a state where you can practice your second amendment rights. My house is ob the market and we're moving to Texas. Leave the knives to the punks who think a knife is cool. Yeah, I couldn't clean my fish or go camping without a knife, but of I need a weapon, I pick up something to bash with.
Damn good advice. Knife fighting is a lose lose proposition.
I don't use a knife to fight...but if I did...GINSU!!!
QFT. Very well said.
I had some further remarks after re-reading two knife-related case files from Maryland again. Both illustrate the lack of stopping power of an edged weapon alluded to by cb51, unless your avowed goal is to kill the other person.
In Re: Julianna B., 2007 and Thornton v State, 2005 are two cases where the defendant was not the aggressor of the confrontation, but happened to be armed with a knife. In both instances the aggressor was unarmed but equally or more physically imposing. And in both cases, the defendant landed multiple non-fatal cuts to the aggressor which had no effect whatsoever, the aggressor seemingly unaware they'd been cut. In Julianna the knife was even serrated and cut both arms and the abdomen. They were only stopped when a final, lethal wound was inflicted. In one this was a straight stab in the heart, in the other stab to the thigh that severed the external iliac artery.
Worth mentioning is both defendants were convicted of 2nd degree murder and served 5+ years. The courts felt they could have easily avoided these situations but chose to engage anyway out of bravado.
Only case I can confirm with hard sources where the defendant was found to have acted in self-defense was the katana-wielding JHU student in 2009. And that was an awfully strange convergence of circumstances. And he still killed the guy.
In Re: Julianna B., 2007 and Thornton v State, 2005 are two cases where the defendant was not the aggressor of the confrontation, but happened to be armed with a knife. In both instances the aggressor was unarmed but equally or more physically imposing. And in both cases, the defendant landed multiple non-fatal cuts to the aggressor which had no effect whatsoever, the aggressor seemingly unaware they'd been cut. In Julianna the knife was even serrated and cut both arms and the abdomen. They were only stopped when a final, lethal wound was inflicted. In one this was a straight stab in the heart, in the other stab to the thigh that severed the external iliac artery.
Worth mentioning is both defendants were convicted of 2nd degree murder and served 5+ years. The courts felt they could have easily avoided these situations but chose to engage anyway out of bravado.
Only case I can confirm with hard sources where the defendant was found to have acted in self-defense was the katana-wielding JHU student in 2009. And that was an awfully strange convergence of circumstances. And he still killed the guy.
cb51, I hear you loud and clear, thanks for sharing. I think there are quite a few 'would be' "perps" that know what you just said very emphatically, and have a great deal of respect (read fear) of knives. I personally feel that a knife at contact distance with a person attacking me with one is MORE dangerous than a person at that distance with a gun.
glistam: in all three of your examples the defender (armed with a knife) lived.
glistam: in all three of your examples the defender (armed with a knife) lived.
Theres a lot that could be 'messed up' with a knife, agreed, it might take a bit of time, but with sufficient penetration...
I feel a knife is an under rated 'weapon' when used skillfully. The point of this thread is to simply ask of the 'improvised' knives, where a boning knife (fillet knife) ranks on some peoples spectrum of usability.
I feel a knife is an under rated 'weapon' when used skillfully. The point of this thread is to simply ask of the 'improvised' knives, where a boning knife (fillet knife) ranks on some peoples spectrum of usability.
Theres a lot that could be 'messed up' with a knife, agreed, it might take a bit of time, but with sufficient penetration...
I feel a knife is an under rated 'weapon' when used skillfully. The point of this thread is to simply ask of the 'improvised' knives, where a boning knife (fillet knife) ranks on some peoples spectrum of usability.
Goes great with at .380 so I hear.
Goes great with at .380 so I hear.
.380 is a legitimate handgun caliber, modern ballistics make it a much better option than ever before. I've started a couple threads pointing this out, and discussing the full (current) FBI ballistics report. If you didn't find those threads informative or entertaining, not my fault.
This thread is about knives. I don't go read the threads you start and keep mentioning things I may disagree with you about in other threads, that's just kinda creepy. Just lighten up a bit Francis.
cb51
Active Member
cb51, I hear you loud and clear, thanks for sharing. I think there are quite a few 'would be' "perps" that know what you just said very emphatically, and have a great deal of respect (read fear) of knives. I personally feel that a knife at contact distance with a person attacking me with one is MORE dangerous than a person at that distance with a gun.
glistam: in all three of your examples the defender (armed with a knife) lived.
Your post brings up exactly what is wrong with a knife for self defense. It IS so dangerous at close range that if someone is attacking you with a knife, the very last thing on each you want to do is help him close the distance by trying to use one yourself. If you do get attacked with knife, just get the -ell away from it by any means. Turning over tables, chairs, trash cans, blocking with some object and retreating. We are surrounded by all kinds of objects every single day and night of our lives, and any of them can successfully block a knife while you get outa there. Any sofa or chair cushion can block a blade. The knife can't hurt you if it can't touch you. While retreating, you kick any chair or end table/coffee table or object not nail down into the path of the attacker.
What you never plant to do is stand your ground and pull a knife of your own like some Hollywood character and fight it out. Knife fight losers go to the morgue, winners go to the ER and ICU, sometimes, if they are lucky.
YOur nice little drawing just goes to illustrate how fragile and vulnerable the human body is to a sharp blade. That's why you don't want to let it get to you. A bullet just plows a nice hole through you and 80% of the people shot and get a single gunshot wound, survive. Being stabbed/slashed repeatedly is far worse.
I'll keep a pocket knife on me t open my mail, cut open plastic blister packages, whittle a nice hot dog stick for my granddaughter. But if attacked, I'm gonna use anything in my environment to bash with if I don't have a gun handy. It may take a while for an attacker to bleed out, but a smashed wrist or broken hand bones will affect him very immediately. That knife in his hand won't do any damage if the hand holding it has smashed bones.
Give me a blunt force trauma tool any day. When I leave the house, I do like my old mentor Ray did, I take a nice stout walking stick with me. And there's a old beat up ball peen hammer laying on the floor of my pickup that just happened to be there.
cb51: understood, and I agree.
A 'knife fight' is a lose-lose proposition.
Assuming you can get something between you and the attacker, great, but not always possible. And the older we get, generally the fewer people we can out run.
I also agree with you that a blunt force object is better than an edged weapon in a full on force-on-force conflict; I'd prefer a stick or baton over a knife absolutely.
But a knife is multipurpose, and very concealable and easy to have on you at all times.
Going back to my original question for a moment, what do you think of a fillet knife as a last ditch weapon, compared to say a carving or slicing knife? Either would be scary as hell if someone came after you with one right?
Maybe that's the other advantage of carrying a knife, if a perp has a knife, and you pull one too, he might be smart enough to to realize this is going to get really ugly fast and decide to run away as you suggested. There are plenty of instances where a would be 'victim' starts to resist, and the criminal quickly disengages and runs away, because they were not expecting an armed or violent 'victim'.
I read somewhere that if you fight back against a violent attack, you have better odds of living, will have less injury AND less psychological trauma later on.
A 'knife fight' is a lose-lose proposition.
Assuming you can get something between you and the attacker, great, but not always possible. And the older we get, generally the fewer people we can out run.
I also agree with you that a blunt force object is better than an edged weapon in a full on force-on-force conflict; I'd prefer a stick or baton over a knife absolutely.
But a knife is multipurpose, and very concealable and easy to have on you at all times.
Going back to my original question for a moment, what do you think of a fillet knife as a last ditch weapon, compared to say a carving or slicing knife? Either would be scary as hell if someone came after you with one right?
Maybe that's the other advantage of carrying a knife, if a perp has a knife, and you pull one too, he might be smart enough to to realize this is going to get really ugly fast and decide to run away as you suggested. There are plenty of instances where a would be 'victim' starts to resist, and the criminal quickly disengages and runs away, because they were not expecting an armed or violent 'victim'.
I read somewhere that if you fight back against a violent attack, you have better odds of living, will have less injury AND less psychological trauma later on.
cb51
Active Member
Okay, on your original question, yes, either one would do. It takes very little to inflict real injury to a human body. Either the fillet knife or carving knife will do if there is absolutely nothing else to use. I think either is too fragile for a thrust, but can slash well. Heck, a piece of paper can cut human skin. But neither one is concealable or explainable if you are not actually engaged in fishing or working in the kitchen.
This is why criminals like knives; for all the reasons you stated. Easy to conceal, most of all. You can walk down the street and appear non threatening to the average Joe. Plus most people are afraid of knives. They all have been cut at one time in a kitchen or during childhood, and they know a knife is very dangerous. The street criminal likes the intimidation factor that anise shiny serrated edge steak knife in some suit's face will convince him to "give it up!" right now. Plus, the cheap knife can be tossed down the next sewer as they flee the scene. "Knife? What knife? I ain't got no knife, officer!" Knives can be replaced way cheaper and easier than a gun.
When I was growing upon D.C. I noticed that all the men folks, real grown up type type men, carried a blackjack or a very stout stick like a rough walking stick. The punks with knives never came near them, mostly. Once I watched a street punk approach an older guy who saw him coming and pulled a blackjack out of a bak pocket. He was yelling at the punk "What? You want of piece of me you little ----?" The would be mugger backed away and ran. Didn't want any part of it.
A knife will do in an absolutely last ditch fight, but it should not get that far. If so, your planning has failed big time. The problem with a knife is, if the other guy is unarmed, the law is going to see you as the bad guy. You are go ingot have a very steep uphill battle to convince a jury that you needed to stab that guy 14 times as he was beating you up. Plus 10 of his buddies, 8 of whom where not even there, will swear that you started the fight. And by the time it's done, that poor youth from a socio-economicly deprived background will be a choir boy who cared for his grandmother who raised him. You on the other hand, will be painted as a knife carrying wannabe looking for trouble because you where carrying a knife.
The cheese heads on the jury are going to ask why didn't you just carry pepper spray if you're worried about defense? Or why didn't you run? Both good questions. In the past two years, I've used a small Saber Red pepper spray two times on some would be assault right here in Germantown. Both times it worked like a charm. It's about the size of a fat sharpie marker, is easy to carry in a side pocket, works out to 10 feet or so, and can be used for multiple assailants. After use, just replace it. Cost about 14.95 at Ranger surplus in Rockville. Way, way, way better than knife. And I can go on down the sidewalk laughing as they gag and puke in temporary agony. No ER or ICU needed.
And there is the real other problem with a knife. They, the certain species of being, tend to operate in numbers. They are cowards by nature, so they like small groups of three or four or more, and goad each other on. You won't be fighting just one. If one or more jumps you with a knife, you're really SOL! If there's enough of them, they get you down, get your knife away from you after kicking your head in, and then use it on you. The little savages know no bounds when it comes to the knock out game or what they call 'polar bear hunting.'
.380 is a legitimate handgun caliber, modern ballistics make it a much better option than ever before. I've started a couple threads pointing this out, and discussing the full (current) FBI ballistics report. If you didn't find those threads informative or entertaining, not my fault.
This thread is about knives. I don't go read the threads you start and keep mentioning things I may disagree with you about in other threads, that's just kinda creepy. Just lighten up a bit Francis.
In my opinion, you keep opening up threads that recommend bad ideas. Neither a .380, nor a knife, will be my primary self defense choices. I hope no one takes your advice and gets killed.
wilcam47
Ultimate Member
I only said bread knife since its more rigid...
Since it has already been quoted in its entirety multiple times, I'll paraphrase it, but that, dear sir, is the post of the day.
There was a time when I was driving in and through DC a lot - I was in the Old Guard Fife & Drum Corps at the time, and my commute took me through DC. During that time there was a real ramp-up in car-jackings. Even though I was a bugler, I always had an interest in drumming, and as a result, I had a pair of Cooperman Guardsman snare drum sticks in my pickup, and I'd drum on the steering wheel when I was stuck in backed up traffic. When I wasn't using them, I had them jammed between the 40/60 split of the front seat of my Ford Ranger. I always felt that if I ever did get car-jacked, getting whacked with the butt end of those 100 gram, dense, hard persimmon sticks would be brutal.
It never happened, and I don't know if they'd have come in handy or worked, but I always felt better having them in there.
Tungsten
Ultimate Member
"Hopkins Ninja" used a sword to kill a burglar in his garage. Was never charged. If he could get away with using a sword, then someone else would most likely get away with using a 3" knife in self defense.
However, I do agree with your overall sentiment: if you find yourself in a knife fight, things have gone terribly wrong and it is generally a thing to highly avoid even if trained.
Please see my last post. The circumstances that absolved the "Hopkins Samurai" but sent Julianna and Thornton to prison for years have everything to do with the circumstances of the encounter and very little to do with the weapon. Please note I'm not necessarily fully in agreement with all of cb51's concerns, as edged weapons do have a place in a narrow set of circumstances.
Indiana Jones
Wolverine
This is a gold thread. Love it!
Im with the bashing options.
"I bash good"
Im with the bashing options.
"I bash good"
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