MSP being ridiculous about my CCW app.

It's just generally DUMB anyway. Obviously I'd asked to prop references, you're going to: 1) List people who are 99% likely to have a favorable opinion of you and 2) notify them to be expecting a call.

UPDATE:

I attended my informal review.

The department members conducting the review were very cordial and polite.

I was explained the reasons I was initially denied and what my options are moving forward. I discussed my employment status and all were in agreement that Knaub was wrong categorizing myself as an employee and requiring a letter from my broker.

I requested my application be taken up the ladder as a "self-employed/independent contractor". I was told they would need to determine how to address this situation because they had never had to field an application like this.

I referred to the 233 other real estate agents who hold permits in MD and the response was that they may have obtained the permit for other reasons and being a "real estate agent" was merely listed as their occupation.

There is a bunch of other things I discussed, but frankly am too burnt out from the whole process. I should have an answer this week as to my status as a self-employed applicant and if I am not satisfied, I will file an appeal.

montoya32 said:

UPDATE:

I attended my informal review.

The department members conducting the review were very cordial and polite.

I was explained the reasons I was initially denied and what my options are moving forward. I discussed my employment status and all were in agreement that Knaub was wrong categorizing myself as an employee and requiring a letter from my broker.

I requested my application be taken up the ladder as a "self-employed/independent contractor". I was told they would need to determine how to address this situation because they had never had to field an application like this.

I referred to the 233 other real estate agents who hold permits in MD and the response was that they may have obtained the permit for other reasons and being a "real estate agent" was merely listed as their occupation.

There is a bunch of other things I discussed, but frankly am too burnt out from the whole process. I should have an answer this week as to my status as a self-employed applicant and if I am not satisfied, I will file an appeal.

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Nice work Neo!

6pack said:

Nice work Neo!

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Ha ha

montoya32 said:

UPDATE: . . . I requested my application be taken up the ladder as a "self-employed/independent contractor". I was told they would need to determine how to address this situation because they had never had to field an application like this . . .

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Wow! Hard to believe. It isn't a complicated concept. Almost no different than a sole-proprietorship/independent subcontractor. At least they were receptive to your issues, and it sounds like they are going to give you some good faith consideration. All my dealings with MSP have been very professional. Worse case submit your appeal to the HGPRB by certified mail within 10 days of the informal decision. But, the next HGPRB meeting isn't until June, so if necessary you may have quite a wait even if you get an appeal into the Board before that meeting. Good luck. Keep up the good fight for your fundamental right.

montoya32 said:

UPDATE:

I attended my informal review.

The department members conducting the review were very cordial and polite.

I was explained the reasons I was initially denied and what my options are moving forward. I discussed my employment status and all were in agreement that Knaub was wrong categorizing myself as an employee and requiring a letter from my broker.

I requested my application be taken up the ladder as a "self-employed/independent contractor". I was told they would need to determine how to address this situation because they had never had to field an application like this.

I referred to the 233 other real estate agents who hold permits in MD and the response was that they may have obtained the permit for other reasons and being a "real estate agent" was merely listed as their occupation.

There is a bunch of other things I discussed, but frankly am too burnt out from the whole process. I should have an answer this week as to my status as a self-employed applicant and if I am not satisfied, I will file an appeal.

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Why do we allow the MSP to control our rights of they are completely flustered and bureaucratically stymied by a unique G&S scheme justification?

I mean, they won't even capitulate that a sole proprietorship is a legitimate (oldest and most prevalent) type of business.

I recently exchanged communications with Paul Sill in regard to this issue. I have written a letter to Colonel William M. Palozzi to advocate that self-defense be included in the "good and substantial" qualifications for permit approval.

Delegate Robin L. Grammer Jr.

Robin Grammer said:

I recently exchanged communications with Paul Sill in regard to this issue. I have written a letter to Colonel William M. Palozzi to advocate that self-defense be included in the "good and substantial" qualifications for permit approval.

Delegate Robin L. Grammer Jr.

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Thank you. By now I am sure he has a stack of them, but the more the better and from elected officials the better. Maybe you will get more than the form letters others have received.

And what was his response?

Glad to have you representing my district. Thanks!

Likely no response at all like they have been known to do.

Robin Grammer said:

I recently exchanged communications with Paul Sill in regard to this issue. I have written a letter to Colonel William M. Palozzi to advocate that self-defense be included in the "good and substantial" qualifications for permit approval.

Delegate Robin L. Grammer Jr.

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Thank you Del. Grammer. I sent Col. Palozzi a letter about 45-50 days ago and never received a response. I do know he or his staff received because Delaine Brady acknowledged it.

Lol we should all do like Andy Dufresne in shawshank redemption and send a letter twice a week every week until we get a response

GrimReaper said:

Lol we should all do like Andy Dufresne in shawshank redemption and send a letter twice a week every week until we get a response

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And, you'd likely never (ever) get a response with that method either.

Not sure why this would come as shock to anyone here but,....... They could give an ef less about you or any letter sent pointing out their ridiculousness.

GrimReaper said:

Lol we should all do like Andy Dufresne in shawshank redemption and send a letter twice a week every week until we get a response

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Send a bit of gabagool and throw in a cannoli once in a while to get on his good side.

UPDATE 1 of 2:

So you all know I had an informal review pertaining to my permit application on May 19th. This was a really frustrating meeting. I was read the Snowden and Sherr cases and told how "public safety" was the aim of the MSP. I retorted that I was concerned about my own personal safety which was met by blank stares. In a roundabout way, it was acknowledged that Sgt.Knaub basically made a mistake by not recognizing me as a business owner and that I indeed proved to be a self-employed/independent/sole proprietorship.

During the initial discussions, the SP reps and I discussed the reasons for permit issuance and the age old topics of cash and valuables came up. I stated that I met those requirements and I also questioned the "purpose" of a wear and carry permit. I stated that the basis and ultimate reason for a permit is personal protection. I got some resistance, but ultimately they admitted that PERSONAL PROTECTION IS THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF A WEAR AND CARRY PERMIT.

I also stated how involving a 3rd party(my broker) was a breech of my privacy and unnecessary.

Talk then turned to how the SP would handle a self-employed applicant and how a self-employed person fit into the "business owner" category. I was told if I had created an LLC or other business designation, that it would have made things easier. I explained that doing so was not a requirement of my job. I was then told that proof of my activities would be needed. I pointed to my real estate license and explained that is was active. The SP rep then said that they may need a record of closed transactions and I refuted that with a slow real estate market, how many transactions would be sufficient? The talk of requiring bank statements came up and I stated that a "business" account was not a requirement of my occupation and that I used a personal account for my business transactions.

After 50+ minutes of discussion, I was told the information we discussed would need to be presented to higher ups and a process to review and process self-employed applicants would need to be developed as they had NEVER had to deal with this situation before. This conversation was held on a Tuesday and I was told that I would have an answer by the end of the week.

*Side note: I spoke to someone this past Friday May 29th and was told this person had assisted several self-employed persons in obtaining their permits in the past. I see this two ways, either the SP rep had no knowledge of past applicants, which is absolutely and completely possibly due to the insufficient methods of keeping and filing records, or he blatantly told an untruth.*

In the real world, an realtor sitting in a "open house" with anybody coming inside would be reasonable enough.

UPDATE 2 OF 2:

AS OF MAY 30TH, 2015 I HAVE A VALID MARYLAND WEAR AND CARRY PERMIT!

My permit was issued based on my occupation as a real estate agent. The only restriction listed is that my permit is ONLY valid for use "during real estate business activities".

What does that mean? Beats the hell out of me. While at my informal review, I discussed that my occupation is a very fluid one and involves many different activities. Sometimes I must work later in the day and am out and about prior to conducting business. Sometimes I go from a meeting to a personal activity. I also stated that I feel as though I am a public person and that I have randomly received "crank" calls from different individuals. Nothing life threatening, but enough to make me aware that people know my whereabouts and have knowledge of what I do.

I'd also like to point out to those who may make use of this info that I DID NOT PROVIDE ANY FINANCIAL INFORMATION OR BUSINESS TRANSACTION INFORMATION.

There was no additional information provided by my broker. The only additional document I provided was a copy of my current real estate certificate as the one I had proved to my interviewing trooper was an expired wallet card.

My take from this whole process is that the existing process is flawed to a degree that none of us here really have grasped yet. The record keeping is below snuff for a government agency of such importance. I was told that in order to find out why permits were issued, G&S, the state police would have to examine all of there documents and extract that information which would take God knows how long and, if I requested it, would cost me thousands upon thousands of dollars. I have also concluded that the process is indeed very arbitrary and biased. Since there is such a lack of detailed policy, the decision is left up to the assigned licensing division employee. In my case, my interviewing trooper indicated in my file and to me in person that he felt I was entitled to a permit, but once Sgt. Knaub received my file, he decided to require things that are not in the code or policy.

Lastly, if I had not applied, I would not have my permit now AND the community would not have some of the information learned during my process. My permit is by no means perfect and I anticipate that I will eventually try to correct that.

I am temporarily content and examining what my participation going forward will look like. I am by no means satisfied or resigned to the fact that this is it for me. We all have more work to be done. The door is now cracked and I can see daylight. Now it is time to lean into that door and make an opening large enough for all of us to pass through.

I did want to thank all who have sent messages of encouragement and those who assisted me in one or many ways.

Please realize that your support and contributions to MSI, AGC and the NRA are being used to further our cause and IT IS WORKING!

There are others who have helped me with this process, but I do not want to publicly name them since I did not get direct permission to do so.

Lastly, the MDS community is full of resources and very intelligent members. If you have need of something regarding this or any other 2A related issue, this forum is one of your best resources.

I am sorry Montoya32 got Knaubbed so bad. Been there done that.

It was lucky he wasn't a single mom, working nights to support herself, halving to walk home through a riot zone and fearing a stalker. Under Maryland's current scheme, propped up by invalidated and made up laws, that mom and thousands of other responsible voters have no chance of getting a Maryland Handgun Permit.

Speaking only for myself, I believe things are beginning to change. We will have a better idea in the next two weeks (SWIDT?), probably beginning Tuesday night.

CypherPunk said:

I am sorry Montoya32 got Knaubbed so bad. Been there done that.

It was lucky he wasn't a single mom, working nights to support herself, halving to walk home through a riot zone and fearing a stalker. Under Maryland's current scheme, propped up by invalidated and made up laws, that mom and thousands of other responsible voters have no chance of getting a Maryland Handgun Permit.

Speaking only for myself, I believe things are beginning to change. We will have a better idea in the next two weeks (SWIDT?), probably beginning Tuesday night.

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