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  • noone

    Member
    Jul 3, 2011
    91
    Sorry if this has been asked on here already, but I couldn't find anything when I searched.
    I ordered 500 of the Federal 180 grain HST bullets pulled form 40 s&w factory ammo. Has anyone else loaded these bullets in a 10mm? If so will they hold up to speeds around 1200 fps?.
    I just ordered some ballistic gel to try them out in just to see how they expand and stay together, I would like to try to get a good hunting round developed for my 10mm for deer. I saw a few reviews of people buying them but no one ever reported back on how they performed. I believe it's a bonded bullet but not sure.
    Thanks for any info
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    40S&W and 10mm use the same bullet. The only difference between 40S&W and 10mm is the length of the case and COAL.

    Why are you trying to use a 40S&W/10mm pistol or rifle for deer hunting? You will not meet the minimum muzzle energy that DNR requires. MD DNR requires at least 1200 ft/lbs of muzzle energy and the highest I can see is 840 ft/lbs and an average of 600 ft/lbs with 40S&W, max of 1000 ft/lbs and an average of around 700 ft/lbs with a 10mm. In a rifle, DNR will not allow that.

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html - velocity
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/40sw.html - muzzle energy

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html - velocity
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/10mm.html - muzzle energy
     

    Bisleyfan44

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 11, 2008
    1,754
    Wicomico
    Did I miss something? What gun are you using? Assuming it's a handgun, it only needs to develop 700 ft/lbs to meet MD hunting regs. Some 10mm loads from a 6" barrel get there. Not sure if the HSTs will stay together @1200. Call Federal and see what they say.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    pulled a couple to play around with, shot well around 1200fps, although just targets, not gel.

    This guy used gel, would probably be good, but lots of expansion, little light on penetration, I'd stick to XTPs much more available, and pretty much the gold standard for controlled expansion and deep penetration.

     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,242
    Mid-Merlind
    I've shot HSTs in 9mm, .40 and .45 and every one I've recovered (about 10) from various materials looked just like the picture on the box. I have my defensive pistols loaded with them.

    That said, I have been using XTPs for about 10-12 years as hunting bullets in .357 Max, .44 and .445 Supermag, as well as in saboted muzzleloader rounds and they've always performed very well on deer.
     

    noone

    Member
    Jul 3, 2011
    91
    I wont be hunting in MD with a handgun, in West Virginia you need a straight walled case 357 or larger to use for hunting there. Yes I know 40 cal. and 10mm are the same bullet I have been reloading for my 10mm awhile. Are you telling me the people hunting with those full power 10mm loads are just getting lucky when it kills their target?
    The gun is a Rock Island 10mm with a 5 inch barrel and the only way I will be shooting a deer or a pig is if I am no more the 30 feet from the animal and I get a unbelievable shot at it. I saw gel test for the 10mm with average penetration around 14 inches or more, so just to make sure I just got my block of clear ballistics gel today and will be loading 180 grain HST's, Remington golden sabers and Gold Dots along with 200 grain xtp's
    Some people believe hunting with a 223 is wrong and it isn't big enough to kill a deer but, there are many deer and other animals taken every year with it. I guess if my 10mm won't kill a 120 pound MD deer I am up shits creek if a 200 pound man breaks in my house and I don't have my 338 win mag handy.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    I wont be hunting in MD with a handgun, in West Virginia you need a straight walled case 357 or larger to use for hunting there. Yes I know 40 cal. and 10mm are the same bullet I have been reloading for my 10mm awhile. Are you telling me the people hunting with those full power 10mm loads are just getting lucky when it kills their target?
    The gun is a Rock Island 10mm with a 5 inch barrel and the only way I will be shooting a deer or a pig is if I am no more the 30 feet from the animal and I get a unbelievable shot at it. I saw gel test for the 10mm with average penetration around 14 inches or more, so just to make sure I just got my block of clear ballistics gel today and will be loading 180 grain HST's, Remington golden sabers and Gold Dots along with 200 grain xtp's
    Some people believe hunting with a 223 is wrong and it isn't big enough to kill a deer but, there are many deer and other animals taken every year with it. I guess if my 10mm won't kill a 120 pound MD deer I am up shits creek if a 200 pound man breaks in my house and I don't have my 338 win mag handy.


    No need to get upset about this, we are just trying to help you.

    Look at the graphs I posted. All the info you need for muzzle velocity is in there. The problem with your comparison is that the chest cavity on a human is much slimmer than the chest cavity on a deer. Something that has that kind of muzzle velocity is fine for SD/HD work, but will not cleanly put down a deer. Also your comparison of a 10mm to a 223 is at best a ludicrous one. A 223 generates 1200-1300 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, while your 10mm generates less than 800 with a 5" barrel. Look at the graphs and you will see that the info is there.

    A 357 mag is a completely different animal, when it comes to hunting. When you are firing it through a 6" barrel, you are averaging 800 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. I believe WV DNR is referring the minimum caliber required with sufficient muzzle energy to take down the animal. According to the chart, in the link, I post above, a 5" 10mm would average 600ft/lbs of muzzle energy. That is sufficient to kill a human, but not to take a deer. You might want to reread the WV DNR books and regs to see if they are referring to muzzle energy or not, because MD references back to muzzle energy. Also WV DNR has rules about maximum caliber for certain animals, during specific time frames.

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html - velocity
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/357mag.html - muzzle energy

    You say a 357 straight walled case or larger. That generally means a longer case, not shorter and slightly fatter. You really need to get in contact with WV DNR to get their read on it.

    Also, WV DNR regs, page 4 at the bottom.
    http://www.wvdnr.gov/Hunting/Regs1415/General_regs.pdf
     
    Last edited:

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,561
    Harford County, Maryland
    That graph leads to a good bit of speculation even with it being Corbon. 800 foot pounds of energy from a 6" barreled 357 Magnum with consistency while staying within SAAMI standards is something I would like to see first hand using a standard production grade gun. That is 1511 fps with a 158 grain bullet. And see the gun for examination after a thousand rounds of it. Load manuals show close to that out of 10" barreled single shots. Typically 8" of barrel and a tight barrel cylinder gap is needed for those speeds. That would be over 1400 fps for a 180 grain bullet in the same 10" barrel.
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    That graph leads to a good bit of speculation even with it being Corbon. 800 foot pounds of energy from a 6" barreled 357 Magnum with consistency while staying within SAAMI standards is something I would like to see first hand using a standard production grade gun. That is 1511 fps with a 158 grain bullet. And see the gun for examination after a thousand rounds of it. Load manuals show close to that out of 10" barreled single shots. Typically 8" of barrel and a tight barrel cylinder gap is needed for those speeds. That would be over 1400 fps for a 180 grain bullet in the same 10" barrel.

    Essentially you proved my point about muzzle energy being high enough out of a 5" barrel. He wants to do 10mm, which doesn't come anywhere close to reaching the same muzzle energy of a 357 mag.
     
    Last edited:

    BUFF7MM

    ☠Buff➐㎣☠
    Mar 4, 2009
    13,576
    Garrett County
    40S&W and 10mm use the same bullet. The only difference between 40S&W and 10mm is the length of the case and COAL.

    Why are you trying to use a 40S&W/10mm pistol or rifle for deer hunting? You will not meet the minimum muzzle energy that DNR requires. MD DNR requires at least 1200 ft/lbs of muzzle energy and the highest I can see is 840 ft/lbs and an average of 600 ft/lbs with 40S&W, max of 1000 ft/lbs and an average of around 700 ft/lbs with a 10mm. In a rifle, DNR will not allow that.

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html - velocity
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/40sw.html - muzzle energy

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html - velocity
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/10mm.html - muzzle energy

    Just a little correction to add to your statement above, Maryland reg state that minimum muzzle energy for a handgun is 700 ft/lbs where you are showing the rifle energy.
    I can't link to the regulations, the site says they are revamping their site.
    http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/Comments/2012-2014_Regulations.asp
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,242
    Mid-Merlind
    Deer aren't particularly tough or hard to kill. In reality, if you can kill them with a sharp stick (arrow), and you obviously can, almost any decent handgun round has the capacity to humanely take deer with a well placed shot.

    If your caliber and firearm meet the legal requirements of your area, and you are confident you can place the bullet correctly and have the restraint to wait for that ideal opportunity, there is no reason not to use it.

    Bullets presented as alternates to HSTs were suggested in a handloading context and did not seem to imply HSTs were insufficient. I see Gold Dots and XTPs as commonly available to handloaders and good basic designs that work well. HSTs seem to be an excellent bullet, but I do not know were to find them for handloading.

    If I had an accurate hunting pistol chambered for 10mm, like a scoped T/C Contender, I'd have no qualms with using it with full power factory HSTs for deer. I personally do not feel confident I will place a bullet within the 6" circle I wish to hit at normal hunting ranges with a 5" iron sighted semi-auto, but YMMV. FWIW, I've cleanly taken deer beyond 100 yards with a scoped T/C in .30-30, .35 Rem, .357 Max and .445 Supermag. I've taken them inside 50 yards with an iron sighted .357 mag and .44 mag and would consider the .357 Max a good minimum for full penetration and reasonably reliable expansion.
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,561
    Harford County, Maryland
    "Essentially you proved my point about muzzle energy being high enough out of a 5" barrel. He wants to do 10mm, which doesn't come anywhere close to reaching the same muzzle energy of a 357 mag."

    I didn't prove anything really. Your numbers were good. My reference was to the chart. They are hairy to say the least. I sure would not use a 800 foot-pound 357 load in my 6" barreled Python or Ruger.
     

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