80% lowers, etc...

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  • buktseat

    Shootist, Gent, Scholar
    Sep 30, 2014
    27
    Westminster
    So I know this topic has been beaten to death. And I know that there are stickies that go into some detail. I also know that the ATF has some policy written down about it. And based on all of this information, I've reasonably concluded the following:

    1) I can purchase and finish an 80% lower, legally and unserialized, in the state of Maryland at this time, provided I retain it for my own purposes.
    2) I can put a 16+ inch HBAR upper and carbine buffer/stock on that lower and have a Maryland legal rifle to shoot with, provided I retain it for my own purposes.
    3) HBAR uppers generally include those with barrels chambered in 300BLK, 7.62x39, and any other unit specifically denoted by the mfr. as an "HBAR barrel."
    4) I can put a pistol (short barreled) upper and pistol buffer tube on said lower and have a Maryland legal AR pistol to shoot with, provided I retain it for my own purposes.
    5) Were I to put a traditional AR-15 upper on said lower - with the M4 barrel profile - that would be a banned weapon and *not* legal.

    Again, based on my research, I believe all of these statements are true. If any of them are not, I'd love if someone who absolutely, conclusively knows exactly what they're talking about would set me straight, hopefully providing links to legally relevant sources that support whatever assertions they might make.

    All of that said, here's my problem. The good folks at White Marsh Arms in Reisterstown, and the ones at Lock Stock & Barrel in Taneytown have *both* told me that number 1 on my list is false. That in fact I must involve the ATF in some capacity, and mark the lower in some way or be guilty of some criminal offense. But the ATF website clearly states:

    Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

    So what gives? Why are people who are generally in the know and whom I generally trust telling something that appears to be blatantly false? Is it about wanting my dollars on registered lowers? Is it about playing it safe? Or are they right? Please help!
     

    Fox123

    Ultimate Member
    May 21, 2012
    3,931
    Rosedale, MD
    They probably deal with SBR's all the time and are confusing the two.

    Or they are looking at it from the stand point that they would be finishing it for you, in which case they would need to be an FFL06 and yes then the ATF and MSP would be involved.

    Or they are just trying to get you to buy their inventory instead of somewhere else on the Internet.


    I wasn't there and didn't hear both the question and the answer.
     

    DoubleTap007

    Active Member
    Mar 18, 2011
    913
    BelAir, MD
    Everything you listed 1 - 4 is true in my opinion.

    #5 - Could be debated. You could probably put a thin profile barrel on a pistol.
     

    buktseat

    Shootist, Gent, Scholar
    Sep 30, 2014
    27
    Westminster
    Yeah, I imagine that there's some selfish nonsense in there. But I've been buying from these people for years, and I'm gonna buy from them either way (handguns, shotguns, etc.). They also know I'm the kinda guy that would tell 'em to screw off if I know they lied to me, so I really don't get the angle - not worth losing a customer over a $60 lower sale. Doesn't make any sense.
     

    Boom Boom

    Hold my beer. Watch this.
    Jul 16, 2010
    16,834
    Carroll
    Given that every LGS I walk into now is selling stripped lowers, it makes zero sense to me how #1 on your list can be construed as a no go. FSA 2013 bans building/buying certain configurations. It does not ban or make any reference to stripped lowers, no matter what degree of mental acrobatics is put into the effort.
     

    buktseat

    Shootist, Gent, Scholar
    Sep 30, 2014
    27
    Westminster
    Also, has any progress been made with respect to the piston gun designations and the bolts being different and blah blah blah? In other words, if I buy an AR lower today, can I put my Stag Model 8 upper and put it on there and have it be legit? Or more to the point, can I just buy a Stag Model 8 rifle today?
     

    Bald Fat Guy

    Active Member
    Oct 7, 2014
    418
    According to my FFL sources, whenever the ATF has face to face dealings with dealers , they verbally make forceful point that everything has to have a s/n (post '68). They will conceade that 80%'s exist and can be completed, but that adding a s/n is inherently a required part of that process.

    We know that's not part of the law, and they are making that up in a policy goal. But a substantial % of FFLs will either not be confident enough legal researchers to tell ATF Agents that they are lying, or be intimidated enough of being jammed up administrativly over a potential paperwork error to shut up and go along.
     

    Boom Boom

    Hold my beer. Watch this.
    Jul 16, 2010
    16,834
    Carroll
    According to my FFL sources, whenever the ATF has face to face dealings with dealers , they verbally make forceful point that everything has to have a s/n (post '68). They will conceade that 80%'s exist and can be completed, but that adding a s/n is inherently a required part of that process.

    That is perfectly true with respect to FFL dealers, so it makes sense that ATF would stress the point to them. The issue does not extend to guns made by a private person for personal use, provided that the person does not attempt to sell such a gun (no S/N).
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,617
    MoCo
    According to my FFL sources, whenever the ATF has face to face dealings with dealers , they verbally make forceful point that everything has to have a s/n (post '68). They will conceade that 80%'s exist and can be completed, but that adding a s/n is inherently a required part of that process.

    We know that's not part of the law, and they are making that up in a policy goal. But a substantial % of FFLs will either not be confident enough legal researchers to tell ATF Agents that they are lying, or be intimidated enough of being jammed up administrativly over a potential paperwork error to shut up and go along.

    Could ATF be verbally, forcefully making that point to FFL's because ATF is specifically speaking with FFL's, who by definition are in the firearms business? IIRC, those of us who are not FFL's may build non-serialized firearms because we are not in the business, are not making firearms to sell into commerce, and are instead making firearms for personal use. That is where the difference lays. Even we as non-FFL's may sell homebuilt, non-serialized firearm on occasion, so long as we are not "in the business" of selling firearms. If I were to start making non-serialized firearms for sale, I would be entering the business, and ATF would jump on me for being a manufacturer, and no longer just a citizen making an occasional firearm for personal us.
     

    clarksvegas

    Active Member
    Jul 8, 2011
    300
    Escaped to TX
    That is perfectly true with respect to FFL dealers, so it makes sense that ATF would stress the point to them. The issue does not extend to guns made by a private person for personal use, provided that the person does not attempt to sell such a gun (no S/N).

    Wouldn't surprise me if it's being worded in such a way to give the FFLs the impression that 80% lowers are no go and they're just passing the info along.

    the OP's dealer probably just got caught up in word games in the ATF's favor.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    One thing wrong in your list.

    You do not HAVE to retain it for your own use. If a pistol, to sell it, it needs to be on the handgun roster. But for a MD legal rifle, you can sell it.

    BUT, the rules do say that you cannot make them FOR sale. So one? No problem. Make and sell some number larger than 1, who knows.
     

    Boom Boom

    Hold my beer. Watch this.
    Jul 16, 2010
    16,834
    Carroll
    Wouldn't surprise me if it's being worded in such a way to give the FFLs the impression that 80% lowers are no go and they're just passing the info along.

    the OP's dealer probably just got caught up in word games in the ATF's favor.

    To be clear, 80% lowers are a no go for dealers to complete and sell non-serialized, no matter if stripped, complete, or built into a firearm.

    It's pretty much a guarantee that some dealers are misconstruing what they're told by ATF as applying to everyone universally, private individuals included. Which boils down to those dealers being ignorant of what federal law actually says (and does not say). If you've been to a lot of gun shops over the years, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about. Certain dealers get so carried away in foolishness that it's enough to make an informed person roll on the floor in uncontrollable laughter.
     

    buktseat

    Shootist, Gent, Scholar
    Sep 30, 2014
    27
    Westminster
    One thing wrong in your list.

    You do not HAVE to retain it for your own use. If a pistol, to sell it, it needs to be on the handgun roster. But for a MD legal rifle, you can sell it.

    BUT, the rules do say that you cannot make them FOR sale. So one? No problem. Make and sell some number larger than 1, who knows.

    Well that sounds like some ambiguous "open to interpretation" nonsense that I'll be staying as far away from as I possibly can. :D
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,502
    AA Co
    To the OP, you are on target with your interpretation.

    You are NOT required by law to put any identifying marks on your self completed lower receiver, unless at some point in time you decided to sell or transfer it.. then you would have to have identifying info as required by law.
     

    bobthefisher

    Durka ninja
    Aug 18, 2010
    1,214
    Definitely not where you are!
    Read the second page of the attached letter. All of those regulations concern licensed manufacturers. So, depending how you look at it, the ATF maybe giving us some leeway on the ability to even sell a homemade (newly manufactured) firearm as an unlicensed individual. However, there's nothing in the regulations that state you must identify anything on homemade firearms, given that it's non-NFA.

    View attachment ATF Homemade Firearm Selling.pdf
     

    DutchV

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 8, 2012
    4,726
    Your dealer may be a great guy, but he's not an authority on the ins-and-outs of ATF rulings. Or he'd just like to sell you a lower. An 80% lower you finish yourself doesn't need a serial number, although it is highly recommended. (Which is not the same as required, you may notice.) This is supposed to help if it's ever stolen. It's still optional. However, if you do decide to sell it, it'd need a serial number and manufacturer info marked on it. Not that you really want to start down that road, but just in case.

    And yes, you can use a skinny barrel (non-HBAR) on an AR pistol. Pistols aren't rifles, so the rule does not apply.
     

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