NRA/MSP Instructor - Maryland Handgun Permit Opportunity

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  • Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,535
    I've been to NRA class where not only live ammo was there, but one in the chamber.
     

    BigT5g

    Ultimate Member
    May 12, 2014
    1,442
    Dayton MD
    Didn't say that it was a"law" but it's about safety. Live ammo in a class room environment is a big No No where I come from. How many times after seen an Instructor cook off a round in the classroom without thinking. I mainly teach beginners so safety is highly stressed and as an Instructor I set the example. Go so far that when firearms are in the class room they are cleared by two Instructors and No live ammo is allowed, bright plastic dummy rounds only. Now with that said once everybody is cleared to go to live fire then off to the range where safety is number one again. Chris

    Of course. This is also our policy for beginner and NRA classes. I was just clarifying. That it is policy and not law.
    And for the record I'm not a fan of the policy. If someone comes to one of these classes and is a permit holder I am very uncomfortable disarming them (or myself for that matter) but we do it.
     

    Chris

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Jun 21, 2005
    2,128
    Cecil Co, Maryland
    Of course. This is also our policy for beginner and NRA classes. I was just clarifying. That it is policy and not law.
    And for the record I'm not a fan of the policy. If someone comes to one of these classes and is a permit holder I am very uncomfortable disarming them (or myself for that matter) but we do it.

    The last class I attended for my own renewal , I was very glad the Instructor had all of us clear both weapons and magazines and no ammo in the class room. That was a good thing as most of the students who had been carrying for a number of years were fumbling around with their weapons. They really didn't know how to present the weapon nor even how to get it back into their holsters safely. Later at the range, one couldn't at the second target position there were no hits? Since there had never been a class requirement, you got your permit and stuck your in your belt-good to go. I think we both understand that safety is number one in a class with students be they beginner or experienced. It's just the level of safety we are talking about.. Chris

    Meanwhile I think we may have Hi Jacked this thread a bit.


    Back to the original, it seems that the HPRB has been in some cases reversing MSP's take on restrictions and denials, this is a very good thing. The more folks put in for Wear/Carry the more the Board can set the precedent for MSP to go by for restrictions and maybe even issuance of permits. Chris
     

    miles71

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Jul 19, 2009
    2,522
    Belcamp, Md.
    On my last renewal I brought up the QHI angle to the MSP. I was told I could not use my instructor status for the permit since I am able to wear a pistol for a training class already at a range or while doing a class. I was told Md is not a proactive state but a reactive state.

    If things have changed I would be happy to add this to my permit, I would see it as a unrestricted restriction. As I explained to the MSP, if I instruct and deny someone a passing certification for a permit, they already have a pistol and would probably be upset. I was told it wasn't a good enough reason.

    Would love to know the answer, but like most things I don't think anyone has one lol

    TD
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Major inconsistencies in what one Trooper says vs another? None of them seem to know the law or how it's applied regarding wear/carry permits? Permit holders are never really sure if they carrying within the constraints of their restrictions?

    Yup, sounds about right. :rolleyes:
     

    BigT5g

    Ultimate Member
    May 12, 2014
    1,442
    Dayton MD
    Major inconsistencies in what one Trooper says vs another? None of them seem to know the law or how it's applied regarding wear/carry permits? Permit holders are never really sure if they carrying within the constraints of their restrictions?

    Yup, sounds about right. :rolleyes:

    exactly, and if the MSP wants to roll you up they will. a decent lawyer on tap is a must.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,173
    Outside the Gates
    On my last renewal I brought up the QHI angle to the MSP. I was told I could not use my instructor status for the permit since I am able to wear a pistol for a training class already at a range or while doing a class. I was told Md is not a proactive state but a reactive state.

    If things have changed I would be happy to add this to my permit, I would see it as a unrestricted restriction. As I explained to the MSP, if I instruct and deny someone a passing certification for a permit, they already have a pistol and would probably be upset. I was told it wasn't a good enough reason.

    Would love to know the answer, but like most things I don't think anyone has one lol

    TD

    Major inconsistencies in what one Trooper says vs another? None of them seem to know the law or how it's applied regarding wear/carry permits? Permit holders are never really sure if they carrying within the constraints of their restrictions?

    Yup, sounds about right. :rolleyes:

    I think the fact that you are on a public list puts you at more risk than the possibility of flunking a student. The MSP policy asks why are at greater "apprehended danger" than an average citizen.

    Let them deny or restrict you and take it to the review board; that's where the real final say is.
     

    BigT5g

    Ultimate Member
    May 12, 2014
    1,442
    Dayton MD
    I think the fact that you are on a public list puts you at more risk than the possibility of flunking a student. The MSP policy asks why are at greater "apprehended danger" than an average citizen.

    Let them deny or restrict you and take it to the review board; that's where the real final say is.

    Great point!!
     

    TTMD

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 10, 2012
    1,245
    Prerequisites for this?

    The pre-req is NRA Basic Pistol. You have to take the class before you can take the class to instruct the class.

    Thanks, kinda figured that.....

    I'm schedule to train (8 hr renewal) later this month. So sick of the hoop jumping. :mad:

    Actually, the NRA Basic courses are not pre-req's for the NRA Basic Instructor Training (BIT) course, or the Pistol, Rifle, or Shotgun Instructor courses. The instructr candidate DOES have to pre-qualify however, and be accepted by the adminstering NRA Training Counselor.

    For more info: http://training.nra.org/instructors/become-an-instructor.aspx
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,173
    Outside the Gates
    Actually, the NRA Basic courses are not pre-req's for the NRA Basic Instructor Training (BIT) course, or the Pistol, Rifle, or Shotgun Instructor courses. The instructr candidate DOES have to pre-qualify however, and be accepted by the adminstering NRA Training Counselor.

    For more info: http://training.nra.org/instructors/become-an-instructor.aspx

    True, the TC may set their own pre-req ... but most commonly the class the candidate is learning to teach is set as a pre-req.
     

    TTMD

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 10, 2012
    1,245
    True, the TC may set their own pre-req ... but most commonly the class the candidate is learning to teach is set as a pre-req.
    My point is that taking the basic curse is not required by the NRA.
     

    miles71

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Jul 19, 2009
    2,522
    Belcamp, Md.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mark75H View Post
    I think the fact that you are on a public list puts you at more risk than the possibility of flunking a student. The MSP policy asks why are at greater "apprehended danger" than an average citizen.

    Let them deny or restrict you and take it to the review board; that's where the real final say is.

    Wow hadn't thought of that, list of instructors could be used by bad guys go single out people.

    TD
     

    sbmike

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 19, 2011
    1,651
    Almost Heaven, WV
    For those of you who have gone through the process, are there any buzz words that should be on the application beyond stating that you are a Maryland QHI? Do you have to provide proof of having taught x number firearm classes? And was the approval straight up or did you have to go through the appeal route?

    Thanks in advance for any information that can be provided.
     

    CypherPunk

    Opinions Are My Own
    Apr 6, 2012
    3,907
    For those of you who have gone through the process, are there any buzz words that should be on the application beyond stating that you are a Maryland QHI? Do you have to provide proof of having taught x number firearm classes? And was the approval straight up or did you have to go through the appeal route?

    Thanks in advance for any information that can be provided.


    I will answer this question in detail by the end of the day tomorrow.

    The most successful justifications have little to do with common sense and everything to do with politics, timing, precedent, and the path of least bureaucratic resistance.
     

    CypherPunk

    Opinions Are My Own
    Apr 6, 2012
    3,907
    Exactly ... and its specific, not "general"



    It's also something to consider before applying to be an HQL instructor


    MHQL Instructor applicants have the option when applying to decide what, if any contact info is added to the MSP public certified/licensed qualified handgun instructor search tool.

    There was a brief time in 2013 when it was all publicly accessible if you knew where to look, but that was soon corrected.
     

    Applehd

    Throbbing Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 26, 2012
    5,285
    This is not the way the MSP sees it as per one instructor. As with every other restriction I would be willing to bet that Knaub won't put that in writing.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

    Hearings at the HPRB are conducted under oath... If Sgt. Knaub said it at the HPRB hearing, a transcript should be available. These hearings are recorded and they are subject to the Open Meetings Act and FOIA. He has said that he didn't care if you were purchasing a soda at a convenience store during the course of your day, that was considered a business transaction. It's been very interesting hearing some of the things he has whipped up when being pressed by the Board members. This is something he is not accustomed to and does not handle very well. It's not the ole " we'll know when we see it" anymore. The new Board members are holding them(MSP) accountable for their actions... or... lack of proper actions.
    Long story, short... Knaub don't have to put it in writing... he said it under oath.
     

    CypherPunk

    Opinions Are My Own
    Apr 6, 2012
    3,907
    Of course. This is also our policy for beginner and NRA classes. I was just clarifying. That it is policy and not law.
    And for the record I'm not a fan of the policy. If someone comes to one of these classes and is a permit holder I am very uncomfortable disarming them (or myself for that matter) but we do it.

    I cannot imagine any circumstances where I would allow anyone to possess live ammunition in any NRA class I was teaching. This includes discreet carry permit holders and law enforcement officers. The only exception would be a NRA reloading class, and in that class ammunition would be allowed, but firearms would be prohibited.

    You need three things to fire a gun… A gun, ammunition, and a person. Remove any one of those and your risk of accidental or negligent discharge is nearly non-existent.

    Many of us on this forum have attended the Glock Armorers’ course, including some at Park Police Headquarters. At the beginning of the class, everyone, including all police – even uniformed police are disarmed and firearms locked in a box in another room. This is not just to torque the New Jersey State Troopers, who cry like babies with a full diaper.

    When you allow discreet carry permit holders, or even well trained law enforcement, or even other instructors to possess loaded firearms in a classroom setting you decrease the margin of safety to unacceptable levels. We have all seen the videos.

    Possessing live ammo in a NRA class is also a violation of NRA training guidelines (as well as UT CFP – “No live ammunition will be allowed in the classroom”, and MSP – “Students will be told before the class and upon entering the classroom that no loaded firearms or ammunition will be permitted in the classroom.” A substantiated claim of allowing live ammo would surely result in your credentials being revoked.
     

    PJDiesel

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 18, 2011
    17,603
    Huh. I can't see having live ammo (and firearms) in a classroom setting. During my RSO class the instructor had a war story about just that.....

    It wouldn't be the first time someone shot through their hand during a class.

    Nope, no need for any carry during classroom instruction.
     

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