Have you ever had to show your "papers"?

I've been somewhat harrassed by an RO at AGC before. I wouldn't show them to him and he didn't press the issue.

The item in question was a suppressor (not home built)

I've been around too long. These were some of the old Woodbine Guns guys in Woodbine near the railroad tracks. Maybe it was PG county. It was WUSA 9. The reporter screamed hysterically that he wanted them all arrested but the LEO calmly informed that they had all their paperwork and was completely legal. Maybe every NFA owner doesn't know everyone else. It was nearly 20 years ago.

Good old Woodbine Guns. I think they only had a store so they could have fun stuff.

I bought my Colt HBAR Sporter there. They had a killer price. They ended up selling a couple of pallets of them.

Was shooting a couple years ago at a PA state game commission public range with a suppressed .22 and and SBR. There was a PA game commission officer (they are real officers with police powers) that came up to us and was quite convinced that I was breaking some type of law with the suppressor. Had to show all paperwork including the 5320.20 for the SBR. He was incredibly confused by it all and spent about 30 min on the phone with his Sgt. making sure it was all "legal" before I was permitted to go on my way. He was respectful the whole time so I didn't mind, but he was clearly ignorant of all NFA law.

SWO Daddy said:

I've been somewhat harrassed by an RO at AGC before. I wouldn't show them to him and he didn't press the issue.

The item in question was a suppressor (not home built)

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Hardly sounds like Harassment...

If you own a range, asking if NFA item is registered is an easy way to help head off potential illegal/ignorant use of NFA items. If they say yes and no you can't see my papers... fair chance its registered. However they look at you clueless... maybe its time to have a longer talk with that person. It would not be the first time...

On target asked for my Forms the other day, ended up putting my cans back in my car.

So, the assumption is you (we) are using illegal guns/attachments?

Interesting.

PJDiesel said:

So, the assumption is you (we) are using illegal guns/attachments?

Interesting.

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I assume that was direct towards my comment.

Look guys, first off I find it funny that many of you are getting upset at private citizens/stores requesting to see your forms and not upset about Police requesting them. This should be the exact opposite!

As a private gun range, the last thing you want it to have the ATF arrest someone with an illegal NFA item on your range. At the AGC, we have a MG club and we make it clear to our members that they should not even consider using illegal guns with us. However, at the AGC as a whole, if they see an NFA items, often the RO will inquire to see if its legally owned. I see nothing wrong with this. You would not believe how many people drop SBR uppers on AR15s or stick stocks on pistols or vertical grips on pistols or bring out there Grandpa's Tommy gun thats unregistered. I have personally seen it happen. We like to help educate our membership and most certainly don't want to get them in trouble. We are not out to turn you in but rather to make sure you are not ignorant of laws that can land you in jail! We have a vested interest in making sure you are being smart. As the above member stated, when we was confronted by the RO, he confirmed it was legal and the RO moved on. We have asked people before during our MGs shoots to make sure they were legally owned. However we have not demanded to see forms.

However police represent the Government. When a Police officer demands to see your forms, he is actually breaking your 2A rights. The whole fact the Government issues those forms is breaking 2A. So yes I understand its a good way not to run into a short term legal issues and hassle... however this is what should be upsetting you. That we have come to a time where police show up to our shoots and demand paperwork to show that are firearms are legally owned. I have heard lots of FA shoots where this has happened.

So I guess I am just not so upset with the indoor ranges wanting to make sure I am not shooting an illegal firearm on their range and I am more upset about police thinking they have a right to see my tax return. I personally don't have an issues showing my paperwork to use an indoor range. I can understand the range owners request and he is making it clear that if you want to use his facility, those are his rules. To me thats no different than not smoking in non-smokers house if you wish to visit. Its conditions between private parties with no government involvement. If you don't like it, don't go. If its worth losing your business over, thats the Ranges call... However often this is not coming from a negative place. Often its ignorance and they feel like they are suppose to check your paperwork. Some of it is fear that someone could get caught at their range doing something illegal which would then cause issues for the range. As private citizens, I cut them more slack. However the police should know the law and not expect us to produce paperwork for them to see!

Just fail to see how it's their job or responsibility to check.

Not smoking in a non smoking home?

Huh? Not even remotely a similar situation.....

These ranges should be checking your state drivers license to be sure you are legal to drive on their parking lot, your HQL and latest physical including eye and hearing tests results.

Egh, this is the the main reason I don't shoot indoors or at big pay to play ranges, bunch of people just waiting around to find something to whine about.

IMBLITZVT said:

...Often its ignorance and they feel like they are suppose to check your paperwork....

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PJDiesel said:

Just fail to see how it's their job or responsibility to check.

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Its not but because they are often ignorant of the issue, they feel they are suppose to. Ignorance about complex gun laws is nothing new.

Not smoking in a non smoking home?

Huh? Not even remotely a similar situation.....

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Well in the fact that its the houses rules... The owner of the property/store sets the rules. Don't like it, don't go. In that way its exactly the same. For example select fire had no cell phones were allowed to be on which they claimed was some BS about a security system. I thought it was the stupidest rule ever, so I did not go! However I completely respect their right to have that dumb rule! Its very different than the Government dictating rules to you.

Think of this. One day you are out with your NFA item. You lose your paperwork which you did bring with you. Complete accident but its gone. Now you get pulled over or a police officer comes into contact with your NFA item in anyway. Now you are screwed... because people just turn over their Tax info without second thought. Now you have lost yours today. Now you look guilty. Now you are on the way to jail! Thats just one example of how its dangerous.

Now apply to the gun store. You lose your paperwork and so you can't show them... you go home early. Might not be the best day but there is no legal issues. Thats why I say... the private requirements are not a huge deal. The Police thinking they have a right to the paperwork on demand is!

I've been a "farm shooter" forever. It wasn't until the past few years I've paid to shoot in a stall at indoor public ranges just to see what its about, its just not for me.

The one thing I was not used to was filling out "paperwork" not that its a big deal, but also (as corny as this sounds) having rules, ammo restrictions, 1 shot/second, no holster draw. I shoot at sporting clay clubs buts its hand over cash and get put on a squad.

Unless you show up with a very short shotgun.

Or try to use buckshot.

Just remember that all the rules are there because someone did something STUPID.

Or to protect their equipment (ammo check).

Going by sheer numbers, there are exponently more Title 1 fireaarms that have been stolen than undocumented NFA. So if (whereever) is cpncerned with being private sector enforcement , they should be running s/n on the "normal" guns .

Battered Gun Range Syndrome basically.

I don't have a problem with the rules, some people love that. I wasn't going there anyway, and I don't even have NFA stuff.

IMBLITZVT said:

Hardly sounds like Harassment...

If you own a range, asking if NFA item is registered is an easy way to help head off potential illegal/ignorant use of NFA items. If they say yes and no you can't see my papers... fair chance its registered. However they look at you clueless... maybe its time to have a longer talk with that person. It would not be the first time...

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Interpret it how you wish. You're making assumptions based on the RSO actually knowing what the NFA regs are when that was not my experience. What you stated is perfectly acceptable, but that's not what occurred.

RSO not RPO, I just did the RSO class this summer, I must have missed the chapter on checking people's equipment for legality.

I understand the privately owned range deal, I also understand just minding my damn business too.

Being unsafe or looking clueless? Sure, I'd be absolutely happy to help out. Coming over dick with you over paperwork on your shit? Nah, seems lame to me.

SWO Daddy said:

Interpret it how you wish. You're making assumptions based on the RSO actually knowing what the NFA regs are when that was not my experience. What you stated is perfectly acceptable, but that's not what occurred.

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Well there is not much meat in your comment to interpret more. However I would point out that you continued shooting without showing paperwork. All other stories, at other ranges, ending with people leaving the range or showing papers. So it sounds like it did not go that bad when compared to many other people's experience.

It does surprise me after our talk on the now deleted thread on an IP forum, that you are so readily turning over your paperwork to MSP and yet the fellow citizen request is met with this degree of negativity.

PJDiesel said:

RSO not RPO, I just did the RSO class this summer, I must have missed the chapter on checking people's equipment for legality.

I understand the privately owned range deal, I also understand just minding my damn business too.

Being unsafe or looking clueless? Sure, I'd be absolutely happy to help out. Coming over dick with you over paperwork on your shit? Nah, seems lame to me.

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Well there is never a good reason to be a dick until they give you a reason to be one. I am assuming all ROs are handling it as professional as possible. I think there is a ton of ignorance out there on the NFA. The gun range owners/ROs are not exempt from this. This is one of the reasons I make sure that I always try to play down this idea that you must turn over your paperwork whenever someone other than the ATF asks! While I do have more sympathy for non-governmental requests, I completely agree they should not be asking either.

I totally understand the concept of "their range, their rules" but what chaps my ass is that they don't check to see that the guns I'm shooting aren't stolen so I don't buy the BS about not wanting to have someone shooting something illegal because it might be a problem for the range.

Although I've never been asked, I'd have no problem whatsoever showing my paperwork (and/or NFA engraving) to an LEO or RO. As long as I've no reason to believe they're trying to hack or screw with my personal identity, I'd undramatically comply. I just can't rationalize a reason to make a stink about it.

Stoveman said:

I totally understand the concept of "their range, their rules" but what chaps my ass is that they don't check to see that the guns I'm shooting aren't stolen so I don't buy the BS about not wanting to have someone shooting something illegal because it might be a problem for the range.

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I don't think they can? Gawking at hard copy NFA paperwork that the owner has to keep for a .gov official versus privileged information really only Law Enforcement has access to for an "investigation" (ie; serial numbers on your regular guns).