Stripped lowers legal?

jonnyl · Jul 30, 2014

dblas said:
You need to go on vacation again, we are waiting for the ruling in Kolbe v O'Malley.

Go on, git......

We'll, if it's for a good cause!!!

Pinecone · Jul 30, 2014

swinokur said:
281 stated if a dealer had a PO for or a lower in stock before Oct 1, it could be sold.

Yes, but is it considered a pre-Oct lower or a post-Oct lower?

Or, can you build an ordered before Oct lower, that you took possession of after Oct as a pencil barrel??

Pinecone · Jul 30, 2014

NoFro said:
Has MSP said anything yet about why they are treating lowers as regulated firearms? Just curious if they have actually tried fielding that question.

Post #643 and the replies.

Franklin · Jul 30, 2014

I will remember that next time they call me asking how a shotgun I sold when I was 18 ended up in a drug bust 10 years later. If they want it, they can get it.

Pinecone said:
Uh, no. The store keeps the 4473. They are not turned over to the state. They are supposed to be turned over to BATFE if, and only if, the store goes out of business.

Only way the State would know what you bought cash and carry is if they visited every store and made note of every firearm sold.

And that still would not cover out of state purchases. Legal anywhere since 1986. Prior to 1986, back to 1968, you could only purchase i adjacent states, but still no MD records of those sales. And then there are the prior to 1968 purchases that had NO controls. No FFLs, no limits on buying through the mail, no form 4473.

And, and don't forget military, who could buy in their state of posting on PCS orders. Again, no MD records.

Or those buying in their home state and moving to MD.

And don't forget FTF sales. Of ALL firearms prior to Oct 1996, but still legal for non-regulated or -banned firearms.

LOTS of firearms in MD that the State had NO idea they are here and in whose hands.

TNW · Jul 30, 2014

NoFro said:
Has MSP said anything yet about why they are treating lowers as regulated firearms? Just curious if they have actually tried fielding that question.

The last response from them posted here (I believe) was an email explaining that they are firearms, but didnt go any farther than that. Im sure they have been collecting plenty of $10 fees and making plenty of people wait 7 days in the meantime...

I just don't understand how they can require something that isn't explicitly spelled out in the law or even derived from legislative intent from what I've read. Not a lawyer, but it just seems like a gross overstatement of power.

TapRackBang · Jul 30, 2014

Franklin said:
I will remember that next time they call me asking how a shotgun I sold when I was 18 ended up in a drug bust 10 years later. If they want it, they can get it.

Yes, they can, and your example is a legitimate time for them to get it. They didn't have it before the crime. This is how I understand it works: They can ask the ATF to look up a serial number of a firearm used in a crime. The ATF then laboriously (since it's not computerized by law) looks through the 4473 files until the firearm is found and tells the MSP who the gun was sold to, where, and when. Then they come knocking on your door.

swinokur · Jul 31, 2014

Pinecone said:
Yes, but is it considered a pre-Oct lower or a post-Oct lower?

Or, can you build an ordered before Oct lower, that you took possession of after Oct as a pencil barrel??

I'll let Nate field that one. But YOU didn't possess the lower before 10-1. Does a PO count as possession? The law seems to say you can take possession, but what date is used? What's the date on the 77r gonna be? The FFL possessed the lower, not you if it was in stock or ordered but not picked up or in his bound book until after 10-1. If it was in his inventory or ordered pre 10-1, It would seem to me, the law would seem to treat these as pre 10-1 lowers IMO, and IANAL, but who knows?

I suck at writing if you hadn't noticed.

44man · Jul 31, 2014

i have a question.

i am filling out paperwork on 2 lowers today. they are at a ffl. they are pre 10-1. before 10-1 he registered them in his name in md. he will be transferring them to me with the 8 day wait. is that good to go? i know i will have to build a hbar or sbr or pistol, i just want to make sure he can legally transfer them to me. he says its good to go but this state is so funny ya know.

eruby · Jul 31, 2014

44man said:
i have a question.

i am filling out paperwork on 2 lowers today. they are at a ffl. they are pre 10-1. before 10-1 he registered them in his name in md. he will be transferring them to me with the 8 day wait. is that good to go? i know i will have to build a hbar or sbr or pistol, i just want to make sure he can legally transfer them to me. he says its good to go but this state is so funny ya know.

I see no difference between you buying a lower from an FFL, or from joe schmuckatelli through an FFL, or even at an MSP Barracks, though I am surely no lawyer.

Agree 100% on the HBAR/pistol/SBR only.

Pinecone · Jul 31, 2014

Franklin said:
I will remember that next time they call me asking how a shotgun I sold when I was 18 ended up in a drug bust 10 years later. If they want it, they can get it.

For a specific firearm, that they have the serial number of, they can trace that firearm. They do NOT know of every firearm in the state.

BIG difference.

They get a firearm used in a robbery. The serial number is intact. So they contact the manufacturer to find out who they shipped that firearm to. And then they go to that dealer or distributor and look at the paperwork for THAT serial number to see where it went. And so on, until they get the retail customer. Easy. And since there no requirement to tell the state about individual sales, they cannot track it past that point. Even if you had sold it to an FFL, they would have NO ide which FFL might have taken it in, and what they did with it, until you tell them.

Then they would go to that FFL and see what they did with it.

And the big caveat is, prior to 1968 there were no FFLs and no paperwork trails. And some firearms did not have serial numbers at all (.22 rifles for example).

Pinecone · Jul 31, 2014

TapRackBang said:
Yes, they can, and your example is a legitimate time for them to get it. They didn't have it before the crime. This is how I understand it works: They can ask the ATF to look up a serial number of a firearm used in a crime. The ATF then laboriously (since it's not computerized by law) looks through the 4473 files until the firearm is found and tells the MSP who the gun was sold to, where, and when. Then they come knocking on your door.

Actually they would contact the manufacturer and start tracking if from there. The BATFE only has the 4473s if an FFL went out of business. Otherwise all the records are still at the FFL.

Pinecone · Jul 31, 2014

TNW said:
I just don't understand how they can require something that isn't explicitly spelled out in the law or even derived from legislative intent from what I've read. Not a lawyer, but it just seems like a gross overstatement of power.

And this surprises you HOW????

They can pretty much do anything they want, until someone takes them to court and wins the suit.

44man · Jul 31, 2014

eruby said:
I see no difference between you buying a lower from an FFL, or from joe schmuckatelli through an FFL, or even at an MSP Barracks, though I am surely no lawyer.

Agree 100% on the HBAR/pistol/SBR only.

thanks, thats what i was thinking but it makes me feel better knowing some one else does also. :thumbsup:

fabsroman · Jul 31, 2014

44man said:
i have a question.

i am filling out paperwork on 2 lowers today. they are at a ffl. they are pre 10-1. before 10-1 he registered them in his name in md. he will be transferring them to me with the 8 day wait. is that good to go? i know i will have to build a hbar or sbr or pistol, i just want to make sure he can legally transfer them to me. he says its good to go but this state is so funny ya know.

Does not matter whether he owned them before or after 10/1. The only thing that matters is when you purchase them/take possession of them. Since you are buying them after 9/30/2013, you CANNOT build them into a banned configuration. They must be built into a pistol, HBAR, or SBR.

You are grandfathered in if you possessed the lower before October 1, 2013. The lower is not grandfathered in.

The lower itself is not grandfathered in.

If the FFL was trying to sell you a complete gun in Maryland on those lowers that is a banned gun, both of you would be breaking the law.

Trumpet · Jul 31, 2014

Just filled out my paperwork at Keep Shooting today!

44man · Jul 31, 2014

fabsroman said:
Does not matter whether he owned them before or after 10/1. The only thing that matters is when you purchase them/take possession of them. Since you are buying them after 9/30/2013, you CANNOT build them into a banned configuration. They must be built into a pistol, HBAR, or SBR.

You are grandfathered in if you possessed the lower before October 1, 2013. The lower is not grandfathered in.

The lower itself is not grandfathered in.

If the FFL was trying to sell you a complete gun in Maryland on those lowers that is a banned gun, both of you would be breaking the law.

nope just lowers. filled out the paperwork just now. i just didnt know what the MSP would think but he, you and eruby and now myself agree i am good to go. now i have both pre and post 10-1 lowers and even got a matching upper today also. now i feel i am good for a long while on lowers.

thanks for the response. i get a lot of good info here. :thumbsup:

MKR03 · Aug 1, 2014

Does an AR pistol built today from a stripped lower have to be on the handgun roster?

OrbitalEllipses · Aug 1, 2014

MKR03 said:
Does an AR pistol built today from a stripped lower have to be on the handgun roster?

Only if you want to sell/transfer the completed pistol (IIRC, only if you want to sell/transfer it in Maryland).

MKR03 · Aug 1, 2014

OrbitalEllipses said:
Only if you want to sell/transfer the completed pistol (IIRC, only if you want to sell/transfer it in Maryland).

Thanks. I misread the advisory....thought it said "manufactured or sold" but it's "manufactured for sale"

SneakySh0rty · Aug 5, 2014

Curiosity, since they are being treated as regulated...I wonder if one could use the stripped lower as a "training exemption" for the HQL. I already have my HQL. but the requirement for training exemption is a regulated firearm..sooo stripped lower should be GTG?

Stripped lowers legal?

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