Don't blink...but people are getting Form 1's for Machineguns approved.

SWO Daddy · Sep 10, 2014

Big thread on ARFCOM.

ETA: The ATF is telling people this was an error, but approved forms were sent out.

TheDevilHimself · Sep 10, 2014

Here we go again....
The last time this happened, it didn't end well.

OrbitalEllipses · Sep 10, 2014

SWO Daddy said:
The ATF is telling people this was an error

Big ****ing error then. :sad20:

SneakySh0rty · Sep 11, 2014

"hundreds of approvals" lmao. Seems most of them were quickly changed via the efile system. Slowly reading through the thread.

Page 9 is where it starts.

bobthefisher · Sep 11, 2014

Can someone PM me the link, if it's not allowed to be posted.

Vince,

Should I even ask, what happened the last time this occurred, and when was that? Were some trumped up charges somehow brought on those who submitted the forms?

OrbitalEllipses · Sep 11, 2014

Prediction: If approved, it is legal for the trust to manufacture a machinegun...however, it is illegal for a person (a trustee is a person) to be in possession of that machinegun.

antco · Sep 11, 2014

OrbitalEllipses said:
Prediction: If approved, it is legal for the trust to manufacture a machinegun...however, it is illegal for a person (a trustee is a person) to be in possession of that machinegun.

If that is true, then (install tinfoil hat) what is to keep BATFE from ruling all items held in a trust are illegal for a trustee to possess, thus ruling all Trust items are illegal?

OrbitalEllipses · Sep 11, 2014

antco said:
If that is true, then (install tinfoil hat) what is to keep BATFE from ruling all items held in a trust are illegal for a trustee to possess, thus ruling all Trust items are illegal?

The law. USC already states persons can't possess MGs (86+), whereas SBR, suppressor, SBS, AOW, etc. are perfectly legal to posses, post 86.

SneakySh0rty · Sep 11, 2014

bobthefisher said:
Can someone PM me the link, if it's not allowed to be posted.

Vince,

Should I even ask, what happened the last time this occurred, and when was that? Were some trumped up charges somehow brought on those who submitted the forms?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ar15.com+approved+form+1+machine+gun

should be the first link, then once on ARFCOM, click link in the first post, view page 9 and read on :thumbsup:

ThawMyTongue · Sep 11, 2014

Weren't there a few here who filed form 1s with a trust?

Wayne1one · Sep 11, 2014

Direct link: page 9 and on, and on....................

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1624460_ATF_ruling_may_have_accidentally_opened_door_to_new_machine_guns_PAGE_9_Form_1_APPROVED.html

The call form the ATF, this is the best part!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s9GKoxnGcM&feature=youtu.be

jkeys · Sep 11, 2014

squirrels said:
LOL...if you're going to dance around the law, don't trip.

There was a thread on this forum a little while back about the whole "trust is not a person" determination.

Remember when playing these games that 2A protects "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms", so if a trust is "not a person", the government technically can confiscate firearms from a trust without any consideration of 2A.

People aren't as clever as they think they are.

Actually they can't. People and businesses have the right to be secure in their possessions. The government cannot just take something showing need and without providing appropriate compensation. Its that whole 4th amendment.

IMBLITZVT · Sep 11, 2014

TheDevilHimself said:
Here we go again....
The last time this happened, it didn't end well.

What happened last time? If I recall they came and got the Form 1s that were approved. However this time they are electronic, so its pretty hard to get that stamp back... Anyway what were the details before?

squirrels said:
....
Remember when playing these games that 2A protects "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms", so if a trust is "not a person", the government technically can confiscate firearms from a trust without any consideration of 2A.

People aren't as clever as they think they are.

The Constitution gives the Feds certain responsibilities. Anything not stated is reserved for the state. So where does it say in the Constitution that they can come collect property from non-persons?

My guess is that as this plays out... Courts will rule that the ATF made a mistake and is responsible for any damages incurred by those who got their approved form 1s back. So if you made that AR into a M16, that the ATF can confiscate it however they must pay for an AR replacement. If no MG receiver was made, then probably nothing will come of a lawsuit. Now if there is some legal standing to force ATF to issue the approved form 1s, then thats a different story. However knowing ATF they will change their stance on Trusts not being people and so "fix" the issue. Now if the court rules that a Trust is not a person... then it gets real interesting. All this assuming that the court does not recognize that owning a MG is most directly covered by 2A.

Drmsparks · Sep 11, 2014

squirrels said:
LOL...if you're going to dance around the law, don't trip.

There was a thread on this forum a little while back about the whole "trust is not a person" determination.

Remember when playing these games that 2A protects "the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms", so if a trust is "not a person", the government technically can confiscate firearms from a trust without any consideration of 2A.

People aren't as clever as they think they are.

yes but.....the supremes have ruled over and over again that corporations (i.e. trusts) are considered people as far as the bill of rights are concerned.

TheDevilHimself · Sep 11, 2014

bobthefisher said:
Can someone PM me the link, if it's not allowed to be posted.

Vince,

Should I even ask, what happened the last time this occurred, and when was that? Were some trumped up charges somehow brought on those who submitted the forms?

I'm still on my first cup of coffee, and I'm a bit foggy on the details, but I distinctly remember someone getting an approved form 1 for a Sten gun. Said individual built the Sten. I believe he was arrested, the gun confiscated, and there may have been jail time.
Other than MDS, the only Internet forum I've ever been involved with was subguns, and I was most active there from '99-'04, so I am inclined to believe this happened during that time frame. If I recall correctly, the guy was somewhat oblivious to the prohibition on making new mgs, he just thought you filed the form and built it. Then there was an ensuing internet debate, I think he posted a picture of the form to prove his point, then everything went to hell for him.
Again, I am really foggy on the specifics. Does anyone else recall this? I've tried some preliminary internet searches, and I'm turning up zilch. Back to the coffee pot....

TheDevilHimself · Sep 11, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
What happened last time? If I recall they came and got the Form 1s that were approved. However this time they are electronic, so its pretty hard to get that stamp back... Anyway what were the details

You are correct, there were some erroneously issued stamps that were rounded up. To the best of my knowledge, none of those incidents involved anyone actually building the mg, and I think they were collected pretty quickly. I think the previous incident involving the sten happened years after the stamp was issued. I'm going to do some digging and see what info and can turn up- it's starting to bother me that I can't recall the name associated with the case.
I have no idea what they are going to do about the electronic forms though.

ryan_j · Sep 11, 2014

Joshua Prince posted this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s9GKoxnGcM

clandestine · Sep 11, 2014

I never sent one. Im glad now.

erwos · Sep 11, 2014

This is going to need to go to the courts anyways. You'd have to be some sort of insane to actually build an MG as a trust without real BATFE sanction, approved form 1 or not.

The other question is whether Congress would amend the law to stomp this out.

erwos · Sep 11, 2014

Maybe Congress could declare a new amnesty to deal with it. *whistles innocently*

Don't blink...but people are getting Form 1's for Machineguns approved.

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