"New" Star B ... this one's really fun!

Some collectors only want to get guns to see how they'll shoot. I do, too, but I like ones that may tell a story. This one *really* falls into both categories. What we have here is an early Star B that has a history that I'm really dying to unravel.

From the best that I can determine--with a generous amount of help from SOMD_Mustangs--this one may have started life as an M1940, made for the Guardia Civil. That's where Antaris seems to put the serial number, at least. The "M" date is 1941, according to an online source. SOMD_Mustangs will help sort this out, since my Antaris book still isn't here.

• The first two photos show the heel of the gun and the serial number. I don't think that one's an over-stamp. I think it's just got a scratch through it.
  
• Now, let's take a look at the right side. Funny-looking cartouche? Let's go in for a closer look!
  
• It's actually two different stampings--one over the other. The original is really interesting ... it's a dual emblem that combined the symbols of the Spanish Carabineros with the Guardia Civil. This insignia came into use sometime [Edit - October] in 1940, and was discontinued in January of 1943. Over top that is a Union of South Africa / South African Defense Forces cartouche. Can it get any cooler than that? Actually ... yes it can ... the same cartouche is on the mag (first photo). Unfortunately, the serial number on the mag doesn't match the gun, but I can get over that in time (OK ... I'm over it).
  
• But what about the LEFT side of the gun? Anything there? Why, yes ... yes there is! Let's look closer.
  
• Hmm ... in Hebrew, that appears to be a person's name ... "y. erez" ... I wonder who that might be? That's what I'm working on now. I have an excellent candidate, but I may be very wrong. Fortunately, a new friend happens to know that gentleman and is going to Israel in a few weeks. She plans to go by and see him, taking photos for him to see. Maybe we'll have an answer in a month or two ... or maybe not. That's what makes research so much fun! If it turns out to be the guy I'm hoping that it might be, this will be a historical gem, indeed! On the other hand, it might just be "y. erez" the accountant for a bakery ... and that would be just fine, too.
  

I'm going to add some more info, since it's late and nobody seems to have looked at this yet. While this one came through CAI, it's not from the latest batch. A dealer had it for awhile. I've been aware of it for awhile, too, but hesitant to buy it because it was priced high and shipping issues pushed that even higher. Now that I've got it and can see it closely, I'm happy as hell with what I paid for it.

The name that's engraved in it in Hebrew was done with an electro-engraver. I don't know when those came into use. The earliest one that I can remember was about 1960. A friend's dad got one and went nuts marking all the lawn mowers, bikes, etc. with it ... using his soc. security number for an ID, no less.

IF this was owned by a member of the Israeli military, it probably would take someone pretty highly placed to have his name on a piece of military property. The guy I have in mind would have been able to pull that off. He was not only pretty senior, he was also well-connected enough that nobody would have been likely to call him out on it. Maybe we'll know ... eventually.

I haven't shot this yet, but it's tied for having the best trigger of any Star I've seen. The other one is my Spanish secret police model BS. This one has a little bit of smooth slack, followed by about 4 lbs to a totally clean break. No "squishy" pull, or "gritty" pull. You put a little pressure on it and the hammer's down. I'm really looking forward to shooting it.

That's definitely a M1940 frame, and "M" is indeed for 1941. Dead-on about the original crest, it was short-lived and falls in line with date code (the S/N also falls in range of 1941 production as expected). Amazing a correct mag is still with it! The M1940's were 9mm Largo so the "B" on the heel was added when it was updated. Based on the slide legend, either the slide was re-marked or it's a 1944 or later "B" slide.

Is that an importer S/N engraved on the front grip strap?

somd_mustangs said:

That's definitely a M1940 frame, and "M" is indeed for 1941. Dead-on about the original crest, it was short-lived and falls in line with date code (the S/N also falls in range of 1941 production as expected). Amazing a correct mag is still with it! The M1940's were 9mm Largo so the "B" on the heel was added when it was updated. Based on the slide legend, either the slide was re-marked or it's a 1944 or later "B" slide.

Is that an importer S/N engraved on the front grip strap?

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I knew that you'd come through for me on this one ... and I truly appreciate it! I think they replaced the slides when they upgraded these, but I don't know that for sure. It's a pity this one got modified.

Yep ... that's an importer-engraved serial number. It's the same serial, but with a "V" prefix. I know why they used a letter prefix, but not a clue how they chose "V". Really glad you are still up, SOMD_M****s ... I've been anxious to see what you think, now that I've got some more photos.

BTW ... just found a mention of Star B Supers on this SADF re-enactment site. I've dropped them a line, asking about the cartouches we're seeing on B models.

http://www.sadfgroup.org/category/equipment/

A pristine, unmarked M1940 would certainly be nice, but this one is real interesting and since it was factory-converted to a B (and no one knows or cares about M1940's anyway) I think it's still pretty collectible. Then throw in the S/A markings and Hebrew engraving for another dash of cool. Plus the potential of being good shooter and a it's a win. A shame they zapped that S/N on the grip strap though.

somd_mustangs said:

A pristine, unmarked M1940 would certainly be nice, but this one is real interesting and since it was factory-converted to a B (and no one knows or cares about M1940's anyway) I think it's still pretty collectible. Then throw in the S/A markings and Hebrew engraving for another dash of cool. Plus the potential of being good shooter and a it's a win. A shame they zapped that S/N on the grip strap though.

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And ... just for the public record ... out of all your Stars that you own, how many M1940s have you got? (For those new to this group, getting something that SOMD_Mustangs doesn't already have just doesn't happen ... especially with Stars and Sistemas!)

ZERO! ya bastige....
It's been a tough one to find.

My Model 1940 converted to B has SN 38063, built just before yours in 1941. Mine kept the original slide and stayed in Spain, no fun trips to exotic locals like yours!

mawkie said:

My Model 1940 converted to B has SN 38063, built just before yours in 1941. Mine kept the original slide and stayed in Spain, no fun trips to exotic locals like yours!

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Hey, Mawkie ... of COURSE you'd have one that's all original ... I'm only surprised that it's just ONE. Wanna post some pics of it, if it's not stored away too deep in the ultimate man cave, so that we can see what one looks like with all the original parts?

I want that Bill!

yellowsled said:

I want that Bill!

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It's mine ... MINE, I tell you!!! But I will let you fondle it, and shoot it, if you'd like, Sled (the same goes for other friends here).

I got this brief message back from the guy who works with a SADF re-enactment group. I've responded with some of my photos. Sled - do you mind if I send copies of your photos to him, as well?

"The Star was the standard sidearm of the SADF for quite some time. I would welcome some additional images, and will send you further details."

I'm not going to claim I'm some sort of expert on Israeli handguns, but I do collect them...

AFAIK, the Stars were most commonly used by the Israeli police force, not the IDF proper (which was using M1951s and Hi-Powers at the time). The "Y. Erez" on your gun may not necessarily be a name, but rather a unit marking - the Erez name was used for a couple different units, including the border crossing police near Jerusalem. So, I would not necessarily marry the "it's a person's name" theory.

That said, maybe it's a name. I've got a gun like that.

send away.... Just give me first dibs if you ever do want to sell it. Love the Jewish link...

erwos said:

I'm not going to claim I'm some sort of expert on Israeli handguns, but I do collect them...

AFAIK, the Stars were most commonly used by the Israeli police force, not the IDF proper (which was using M1951s and Hi-Powers at the time). The "Y. Erez" on your gun may not necessarily be a name, but rather a unit marking - the Erez name was used for a couple different units, including the border crossing police near Jerusalem. So, I would not necessarily marry the "it's a person's name" theory.

That said, maybe it's a name. I've got a gun like that.

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Erwos ... TOO COOL!

I haven't definitively married the inscription to a person's name, but two knowledgeable friends, both of whom spend much of their time in Israel, feel pretty certain that it's a person's name, rather than related to the Erez border guards (who may well have used Star pistols, as well).

As with your amazing gun, this one may have been used,at one time, by an Israeli officer who had been an officer in Hagganah. Again, as with yours, if that's the case, I suspect that it was not used by him in the late 194os, but perhaps issued to him in later years. The idea that both guns were issued, rather than gifted, would explain why they might have been collected and traded up/sold for newer models. While rank has its privileges (such as carrying a personalized piece of military property), officers still had to lead by example, so turning back in a piece of military property isn't out of the question ... but that's just a working theory to be proved or disproved.

Can you get a close-up photo of the inscription on yours ... one that will show how it was done? Mine was clearly done with an electro engraver of some sort. My research shows that those have been around a lot longer than I thought ... back to the 1890s in various forms.

Thanks for posting that info!! That date is potentially a huge piece of the puzzle.

I'll see what I can do to get a close up shot of the engraving on my M1951. IMHO, it looks like it was done by machine, or at least machine aided. The lettering is very small for a hand engraving.

I am curious what you think the geographical history of this gun is. I am thinking Spain->Israel->SA. The Israelis gave the South Africans a fair bit of aid back in the bad old days. I also am completely unable to Google up a Y Erez of any particular note from the Haganah - who do you think this guys is?

The Haganah theory is at least sensible, though - early gun, would have been surplused off after hard use, and it would have been good in aid package.

erwos said:

I'll see what I can do to get a close up shot of the engraving on my M1951. IMHO, it looks like it was done by machine, or at least machine aided. The lettering is very small for a hand engraving.

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I blew up the photo that you posted and, while not very clear when enlarged, it looks like some sort of rotary machine engraving -- the same basic process as was done on mine.

erwos said:

I am curious what you think the geographical history of this gun is. I am thinking Spain->Israel->SA. The Israelis gave the South Africans a fair bit of aid back in the bad old days.

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I'm not at all sure. That's what I'm trying to figure out, but that seems to be the most logical path. In "the bad old days", Israel was buying whatever they could get, from whatever source. It's looking like the Stars sent to SA were more recent. Some of the puzzle pieces may start to come together soon.

Remember how we put together the logical chain of events regarding the movement of the Sino-Albanian SKSs ... and even that they came out of Albania to begin with? This is a similar puzzle.

erwos said:

I also am completely unable to Google up a Y Erez of any particular note from the Haganah - who do you think this guys is?

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I'll send a PM in a few minutes.

erwos said:

The Haganah theory is at least sensible, though - early gun, would have been surplused off after hard use, and it would have been good in aid package.

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I'm not sure--in fact, don't really think, these were used by the Hagganah in the very early days. They were probably still in the hands of the Spanish Guardia Civil during that time. But they had a reputation for being good handguns by the time Star got them back and re-sold them. The info on when that happened is all over the place, though. I suspect it may have been done in batches, over a period of years, and not all at once. These guns would have been nice for old buddies from the beginning days of the Hagganah to present to each other when they first came in and still looked new from the factory re-furb.

I agree, I think they were made for Spanish forces, then went to Israel, then handed off to South Africa.

yellowsled said:

I agree, I think they were made for Spanish forces, then went to Israel, then handed off to South Africa.

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The vexing thing is that there are just so very few indications that these guns ever went to Israel. Some of the sellers have made that claim for quite awhile, and I've been skeptical about that because of the scarcity of evidence, but there have been a very few that showed up with marks that suggested either Israeli, or at least individual Jewish ownership from somewhere, at one point.

[Addition: If I recall correctly, JKEILER has one with a very small, faint, Mogen David on it.]

I think that when the lots arrived at our shores, some did in fact serve in the IDF, but they were prolly lumped in with others. When the importers/distributors got their hands on them they assumed all came from Israel because some had been marked. my .02

Machodoc said:

The vexing thing is that there are just so very few indications that these guns ever went to Israel. Some of the sellers have made that claim for quite awhile, and I've been skeptical about that because of the scarcity of evidence, but there have been a very few that showed up with marks that suggested either Israeli, or at least individual Jewish ownership from somewhere, at one point.

[Addition: If I recall correctly, JKEILER has one with a very small, faint, Mogen David on it.]

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Yes that's right, although when I blew up the pic I posted even more, it led me to question whether it really is a Mogen David or just scratches that sort of appear that way. I'm agnostic on it now.

Not sure if you recall, we exchanged a couple PMs about your Israeli Star a while back. An Israeli cousin of mine with a lot of military/security experience is unaware of any Stars in Israeli use, though he admits to not being expert. Also mentioned, as erwos noted, that the engraving could be a unit marking (there are and have been over the years--again as erwos noted--several units of military and police that have used that name) but it is more likely than not, in my cousin's opinion, a personal engraving.

If it is a personal engraving, and especially if the Stars were not really in Israeli use, then the Spain, Israel, SA provenance, doesn't really make any more sense then Spain, SA, Israel. Israel and Spain have never had close relations and frankly, I think it more likely that in the '50s and '60s the Spanish would have sold weapons to SA before Israel. Israel and SA had close relations for a long time. Could be that a SA military officer gifted the Star to an Israeli counterpart.

jkeiler said:

Not sure if you recall, we exchanged a couple PMs about your Israeli Star a while back.

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I do recall. It wasn't mine back then, but I didn't mention that at the time. I just knew about it and used the pic as an example. It's mine now, though.

jkeiler said:

An Israeli cousin of mine with a lot of military/security experience is unaware of any Stars in Israeli use, though he admits to not being expert. Also mentioned, as erwos noted, that the engraving could be a unit marking (there are and have been over the years--again as erwos noted--several units of military and police that have used that name) but it is more likely than not, in my cousin's opinion, a personal engraving.

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Although there are, as you say, several units that have "Erez" in their names--most conspicuously the three units (I believe) of the Erez crossing border guards--none seem to match up with a "y. erez".

And I'd also ask the age of your cousin. I know a lot of military guys in their 30s today who can tell you a lot about what's going on in the military today, but aren't particularly well-versed on what went on in the '50s and '60s.

jkeiler said:

If it is a personal engraving, and especially if the Stars were not really in Israeli use, then the Spain, Israel, SA provenance, doesn't really make any more sense then Spain, SA, Israel. Israel and Spain have never had close relations and frankly, I think it more likely that in the '50s and '60s the Spanish would have sold weapons to SA before Israel. Israel and SA had close relations for a long time. Could be that a SA military officer gifted the Star to an Israeli counterpart.

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Here's where the puzzle gets murky ... and fun to solve.

Based on what little I know so far, if there's any Israeli military or police connection, it most likely would have been in between the Spanish (Guardia Civil trade-ins to Star) use and the SA use.

We know for sure that these were used by Spain's GC. We also know that at least some (if not most) found their way to SA. I tend to lean toward many of these (still clearly marked, or not) coming most recently out of SA, but the connection that they have with Apartheid, the Angola wars, subjugation of black Africans, etc., having a stigma attached to them (like "blood diamonds") that maybe the importers thought best not to wave around too much. That's just a theory--but one that seems to be pretty well grounded.

In the very early years, Israel grabbed whatever they could get, from whatever source available. It's very possible, if not likely, that they did the same during the period around The Seven Days War, in order to get as many citizens armed as possible. If Star--or a broker--offered them a batch of re-furb former GC pistols in that era, especially if they were reasonably priced and available to be delivered in a hurry (as the Stars were), Israel may have grabbed them ... just to be prepared. Then, if they were later deemed unnecessary, or inferior to what could be procured through the lengthier contract or domestic manufacturing avenues, they might have been rounded back up from (police? military reserves? other citizen soldiers? parking meter readers?) and sold off.

I'm not floating any ideas about relationships between Israel and SA playing any sort of role. In fact, I'd be more inclined to think that these were just deals that were brokered by one, or more, of the many large international arms dealers (legal and otherwise) who were around at that time. I'd tend to suspect that any sort of exchange between, or among, Spain, Israel, and South Africa were simply business transactions ... probably through independent brokers. I doubt it was anything but business ... one country had a surplus lot, another had a need for guns, a broker put the deal together. That's my inclination at the moment, anyway.