Now that full lowers are allowed - what about 80%?

whistlersmother · Aug 26, 2014

Pinecone said:
If you put a non-HBAR upper on a rifle that was NOT in banned form before Oct 1, you cannot do it now. You will be making a banned rifle.

If it existed in banned form before Oct 1, then it can be returned to that form.

Thanks, but I understand at least that much.

We were debating if an HBAR upper is now put on a 77r lower now (purchased post 10/13) can it be sold as non-regulated.

It would seem an FFL can do this, but what about an individual?

River Mud · Aug 26, 2014

Pinecone said:
If you put a non-HBAR upper on a rifle that was NOT in banned form before Oct 1, you cannot do it now. You will be making a banned rifle.

If it existed in banned form before Oct 1, then it can be returned to that form.

Ding ding ding "cannot be manufactured or assembled into a banned configuration" is the MSP language I recall, and that I will continue to to abide by.

blodter · Aug 27, 2014

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but put simply, as long as one were to get a lower - stripped or complete - and made sure that it was transferred from an FFL marked "Other" on form 4473, it could be manufactured into any legal configuration, be it an AR pistol, or an HBAR rifle.

Now, in the case that it was marked as "Handgun" on form 4473, would its only legal configuration be an AR pistol? If not and it was configured as an HBAR, then it would definitely have to comply with all the restrictions a handgun must comply with, correct?

Also, if one were to configure this lower into a rifle, could different caliber uppers be used? If so, what are the restrictions? Meaning, if one were to attach a 300 BLK upper, must it be an HBAR as well?

Forgive me if this has been answered before, but I haven't seen anything on it. And thanks for all of the answers so far.

jrumann59 · Aug 27, 2014

Pinecone said:
Yes, you can buy them.

Yes you can make them into a rifle. But most are sold as stripped lowers, so you need to put all the parts in them to make the work.

You still need an HBAR barrel, since it did not exist in banned form prior to Oct 1, 2013.

I have been happy with my Anderson lower and two Anderson uppers. My Del-Ton lower seems fine.

This though does not apply to pre-10/1 lowers that are possessed by an individual, correct?

Boom Boom · Aug 27, 2014

blodter said:
Now, in the case that it was marked as "Handgun" on form 4473, would its only legal configuration be an AR pistol? If not and it was configured as an HBAR, then it would definitely have to comply with all the restrictions a handgun must comply with, correct?

If the form is marked "Handgun" (it shouldn't be), you need the HQL. Nobody here knows the real-life implications of such a scenario short of a crystal-clear clarification by the AG (never going to happen) or a test case being prosecuted. Rather than worrying about "what ifs" 100 different ways, it's best to simply walk away if the FFL refuses to do "Other".

blodter · Aug 27, 2014

Boom Boom said:
If the form is marked "Handgun" (it shouldn't be), you need the HQL. Nobody here knows the real-life implications of such a scenario short of a crystal-clear clarification by the AG (never going to happen) or a test case being prosecuted. Rather than worrying about "what ifs" 100 different ways, it's best to simply walk away if the FFL refuses to do "Other".

Got it! Thanks! In any case that I would be purchasing a stripped lower, I would ensure that the FFL I would be obtaining it from would mark it as "Other" before anything else. I'm only curious as to what the limitations are in most - if not all circumstances.

Sticky · Aug 27, 2014

jrumann59 said:
This though does not apply to pre-10/1 lowers that are possessed by an individual, correct?

If you only possessed the lower and never built it into a legal configuration prior to 10/1, then you are limited in building it into a 'now legal' configuration.

If it was built into a weapon that was legal before 10/1, then you can maintain that configuration.

So, if you just have stripped lowers, never built them out, then you have to limit yourself to an HBAR rifle configuration or a pistol now....

Haides · Aug 27, 2014

Sticky said:
If you only possessed the lower and never built it into a legal configuration prior to 10/1, then you are limited in building it into a 'now legal' configuration.

If it was built into a weapon that was legal before 10/1, then you can maintain that configuration.

So, if you just have stripped lowers, never built them out, then you have to limit yourself to an HBAR rifle configuration or a pistol now....

The state has absolutely no way of knowing what parts you possessed, when you possessed them, or when you built the lower. All they know is when you purchased it. While your advice is good and safe, it would be impossible for the state to stick anything on you because for all they know, you took it home and completed a rifle out of it that day.

Remember, the lower IS the firearm, legally speaking. As long as it was transferred to you on a 77r (meaning not a lower you stripped down from an unregulated HBAR purchase) before 10/1/13, that lower can be built into pre-10/1/13 legal configurations. If you're really worried about it, pay cash for your upper and "lose" the receipt. Even if it was a no-no assemble a pre-10/1/13 lower into a now-banned configuration, the burden of proof is on state to prove you built it after 10/1, which is all but impossible, especially if you're smart about it.

Pinecone · Aug 27, 2014

blodter said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but put simply, as long as one were to get a lower - stripped or complete - and made sure that it was transferred from an FFL marked "Other" on form 4473, it could be manufactured into any legal configuration, be it an AR pistol, or an HBAR rifle.

Now, in the case that it was marked as "Handgun" on form 4473, would its only legal configuration be an AR pistol? If not and it was configured as an HBAR, then it would definitely have to comply with all the restrictions a handgun must comply with, correct?

Also, if one were to configure this lower into a rifle, could different caliber uppers be used? If so, what are the restrictions? Meaning, if one were to attach a 300 BLK upper, must it be an HBAR as well?

Forgive me if this has been answered before, but I haven't seen anything on it. And thanks for all of the answers so far.

A pistol can be made into a rifle, so no problem.

But a rifle can NOT be made into a pistol legally.

Pinecone · Aug 27, 2014

jrumann59 said:
This though does not apply to pre-10/1 lowers that are possessed by an individual, correct?

As I understand it, if the rifle did not exist in a banned configuration prior to Oct 1, then you cannot put it into a banned configuration now. No matter when you bought the lower.

For this reason, many people put a pencil barrel upper on every one of their lowers before Oct 1.

Pinecone · Aug 27, 2014

Haides said:
The state has absolutely no way of knowing what parts you possessed, when you possessed them, or when you built the lower. All they know is when you purchased it. While your advice is good and safe, it would be impossible for the state to stick anything on you because for all they know, you took it home and completed a rifle out of it that day.

Yes, but are you willing to take the chance of being arrested, charged, you firearms confiscated, having to hire (and PAY an attorney)?

Even if you win, you lose.

Haides · Aug 27, 2014

Pinecone said:
Yes, but are you willing to take the chance of being arrested, charged, you firearms confiscated, having to hire (and PAY an attorney)?

Even if you win, you lose.

It would be no different a risk than possessing a non-hbar rifle you did build before 10/1/13. You could have bought the lower in 2007; if you built it before 10/1/13, the state doesn't know. If didn't build it before 10/1/13, the state still doesn't know. Did you take all the m4 profile barrels off your AR's and replace them with HBAR's? I mean if you're going that far just to be safe, then good on you I suppose, if that's what you want to do.

But it's all a moot point, really. As I said, the lower is the firearm in the eyes of the law. If you possessed the lower before October, then you possessed the firearm before October. Whatever configuration it was in is irrelevant.

Haides · Aug 27, 2014

You can do both, and be just fine. :thumbsup:

RoboRay · Aug 27, 2014

331hank said:
then why can't I simply buy a brand-name AR 15 with a Heavy Barrel?

I dunno... why can't you?

Pinecone · Aug 27, 2014

Haides said:
It would be no different a risk than possessing a non-hbar rifle you did build before 10/1/13. You could have bought the lower in 2007; if you built it before 10/1/13, the state doesn't know. If didn't build it before 10/1/13, the state still doesn't know. Did you take all the m4 profile barrels off your AR's and replace them with HBAR's? I mean if you're going that far just to be safe, then good on you I suppose, if that's what you want to do.

But it's all a moot point, really. As I said, the lower is the firearm in the eyes of the law. If you possessed the lower before October, then you possessed the firearm before October. Whatever configuration it was in is irrelevant.

The difference is MANUFACTURING a banned firearm, versus having a grandfathered banned firearm.

If you have a lower from pre-Oct 1, that you did nothing with, and now built a pencil barreled rifle, you have manufactured a banned firearm. If you did this before Oct 1, you can still have it in the banned configuration, as it is grandfathered.

Look how MSP is telling BATFE to handle SBRs. If the rifle was an SBR before Oct 1, it can be any length. If you make it an SBR now, NO MATTER WHEN THE LOWER WAS PURCHASED, it must be over 29" long, or it is a banned copycat.

Pinecone · Aug 27, 2014

331hank said:
Reading this thread is giving me a headache and making me feel like Alice in Wonderland.

Once again, I can buy a fully assembled AR 15 lower from someone and have it delivered to an FFL, and then attach a fully assembled AR 15 upper with an Heavy Barrel and I'm not breaking the law?

Yes, although the FFL may need an 07 license (manufacturer).

331hank said:
If that is the case, then why can't I simply buy a brand-name AR 15 with a Heavy Barrel?

You can. Just visit a store with them in stock and buy one. Only thing is, you cannot buy a Bushmaster AR, due to how MSP is interpreting the list.

Several Industry Partners (IPs) have them in stock ready to go. Cash and carry. Lou at Shooter's Discount has both new and LE trade in Colt LE6921s. The Bank in Havre de Grace has several HBAR ARs on the wall for sale. Engage in Rockville has them. And many others.

331hank said:
Where's my Daisy air rifle?

Don't know, but those are also still available.

Haides · Aug 27, 2014

Pinecone said:
The difference is MANUFACTURING a banned firearm, versus having a grandfathered banned firearm.

If you have a lower from pre-Oct 1, that you did nothing with, and now built a pencil barreled rifle, you have manufactured a banned firearm. If you did this before Oct 1, you can still have it in the banned configuration, as it is grandfathered.

Look how MSP is telling BATFE to handle SBRs. If the rifle was an SBR before Oct 1, it can be any length. If you make it an SBR now, NO MATTER WHEN THE LOWER WAS PURCHASED, it must be over 29" long, or it is a banned copycat.

Okay. I'm not going to get into manufacturing vs assembly, because I think with too much common sense to be able to understand the stupid ways these laws are written and interpreted lol. So I'll assume you're right with that.

More importantly, however, consider the following two scenarios:

(a) You purchased a lower pre-10/1/13. You assembled the lower into a full rifle pre-10/1/13. How does the state know you assembled it? How can you prove you did? Is the burden of proof even on you to do so? Is the state going to charge you with possessing a banned firearm when they have a pre-10/1/13 77r for it? Under your interpretation, even lowers that you did assemble aren't safe. So it doesn't matter.

(b) You purchased a lower pre-10/1/13. You did not assemble it before 10/1/13. How does the state know you didn't assemble it? How can they prove you didn't? Is the state going to charge you with possessing a banned firearm when they have a pre-10/1/13 77r for it? IMO, they can't. Even if it does work that way, it's completely unenforceable.

Chevyman85 · Aug 27, 2014

^

Don't get worked up over it. As with many here, they're well versed in how the laws apply to all sorts of hypothetical situations but not reality...

rmiddle · Aug 27, 2014

Haides said:
Okay. I'm not going to get into manufacturing vs assembly, because I think with too much common sense to be able to understand the stupid ways these laws are written and interpreted lol. So I'll assume you're right with that.

More importantly, however, consider the following two scenarios:

(a) You purchased a lower pre-10/1/13. You assembled the lower into a full rifle pre-10/1/13. How does the state know you assembled it? How can you prove you did? Is the burden of proof even on you to do so? Is the state going to charge with possessing a banned firearm when they have a pre-10/1/13 77r for it? Under your interpretation, even lowers that you did assemble aren't safe. So it doesn't matter.

(b) You purchased a lower pre-10/1/13. You did not assemble it before 10/1/13. How does the state know you didn't assemble it? How can they prove you didn't? Is the state going to charge with possessing a banned firearm when they have a pre-10/1/13 77r for it? IMO, they can't. Even if it does work that way, it's completely unenforceable.

Are uppers date stamped? I don't know as I have never looked. If they have a date on them that is after 10/1/2013 then it will be pretty easy for the state to prove it was built after 10/1/2013.

Thanks
Robert

Haides · Aug 27, 2014

Good question. I don't think they are as I've never of that, but I don't know. Obviously things would be a little different if that were the case.

Now that full lowers are allowed - what about 80%?

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