C&R Woes

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  • Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    I won an Ortgies in 25 ACP on the broker. Before I bid, I asked the seller to confirm that he would ship to an 03 FFL. He replied, "Yes, we honor all FFLs". I paid for my item, and he writes me to say that the Ortgies is classified as a "firearm" and therefore is not covered by my license and must ship to another dealer. He said that he called the ATF "because I have never run into this before."

    I sent him a 982 page email which included a link to the ATF's C&R publication, along with the law and the regulations that state that a licensed dealer may transport in interstate commerce a C&R to a licensed collector. I pointed out that not only is an Ortgies more than 50 years old, but it is specifically listed on page 25 of the ATF's publication.

    Is there anything else I can do to ease this guy's mind? I don't know who he spoke with at the ATF, but I find it impossible to believe that he was told by the ATF that he could not ship a C&R to an 03 FFL.

    The closest dealer to me is Continental, and I'm not paying their $100 transfer fee. That means I will have to drive 35 miles to a dealer who won't bend me over. This really pisses me off.
     

    dementlr

    Active Member
    Feb 8, 2011
    483
    St. Mary's County
    Not quite the same issue, but yesterday I was told that the C&R pistol I wanted to buy would cost $85.00 to ship because USPS would not permit a handgun to be sent to anyone other than an FFL01 and that FEDEX required express overnight delivery. So the option was $85 to ship direct or $25 and pay for a dealer transfer. Neither option is very attractive considering the purchase price of the pistol was $250. Had I been buying a long gun it would have shipped via USPS.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,173
    Outside the Gates
    Maybe you can point out some other GB auctions where the seller says they will ship to 03's, esp if the gun is something from the 1950's and significantly newer than the Ortgies
     

    KH195

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 10, 2013
    1,550
    Virginia
    If it were me I would be quite agitated considering you did your part by reaching out to them for confirmation on the 03 FFL. It should be on them since they responded with a "yes", which I'm sure influenced your decision to bid. Short of standing your ground and reporting it to Gunbroker on their "report a problem with a seller page" not sure their is much else you can do if they don't educate themselves properly (scary to begin with that they don't know what an 03 is since it sounds like it is a shop/dealer) or have received crappy info from the "ATF".

    If it were me and I took the time to get email confirmation on the 03 before bidding I wouldn't pay unless they shipped directly to me or gave a discount to compensate for their error and the extra fees associated with having it transferred through a dealer. Good luck, hopefully they see the light and it all works out.
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    Not quite the same issue, but yesterday I was told that the C&R pistol I wanted to buy would cost $85.00 to ship because USPS would not permit a handgun to be sent to anyone other than an FFL01 and that FEDEX required express overnight delivery. So the option was $85 to ship direct or $25 and pay for a dealer transfer. Neither option is very attractive considering the purchase price of the pistol was $250. Had I been buying a long gun it would have shipped via USPS.

    This is actually correct. USPS will not allow a C&R handgun to be shipped to an 03 FFL. Their regulations permit shipment of handguns, even C&Rs (but not antiques), only between "dealers" and they take the position that a collector is not a "dealer". Thus, a C&R handgun must go via UPS or FedEx, and they will only ship a handgun via overnight.
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    Problem solved. It turns out that the guy - who is very nice - holds a manufacturer's license 07 and does not regularly deal in used firearms. He has never shipped to an 03 before. After reading my tome, he agreed to ship and is not going to charge me for the UPS shipping charge. So, I ended up scoring a very nice Ortgies in 25 ACP with intact grips for a total of $190. I consider that a score!
     

    KH195

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 10, 2013
    1,550
    Virginia
    Problem solved. It turns out that the guy - who is very nice - holds a manufacturer's license 07 and does not regularly deal in used firearms. He has never shipped to an 03 before. After reading my tome, he agreed to ship and is not going to charge me for the UPS shipping charge. So, I ended up scoring a very nice Ortgies in 25 ACP with intact grips for a total of $190. I consider that a score!

    Awesome! Glad it all worked out.
     

    jkeiler

    Active Member
    Mar 25, 2013
    536
    Bowie
    This is actually correct. USPS will not allow a C&R handgun to be shipped to an 03 FFL. Their regulations permit shipment of handguns, even C&Rs (but not antiques), only between "dealers" and they take the position that a collector is not a "dealer". Thus, a C&R handgun must go via UPS or FedEx, and they will only ship a handgun via overnight.

    My understanding was that an 03 cannot ship a CR handgun USPS but an 01 can, including to an 03. In any event, I have certainly have received CR handguns shipped USPS from 01 FFLs but if I ship one I have to use UPS. When I looked at the rules it seemed to me that this was correct, but it's been awhile.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    My understanding was that an 03 cannot ship a CR handgun USPS but an 01 can, including to an 03. In any event, I have certainly have received CR handguns shipped USPS from 01 FFLs but if I ship one I have to use UPS. When I looked at the rules it seemed to me that this was correct, but it's been awhile.

    This seems to be more common than is let on here.

    Is it correct? Seems 5 opinions from 3 different people. I for one would like a definitive answer.
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,480
    Fairfax, VA
    My understanding was that an 03 cannot ship a CR handgun USPS but an 01 can, including to an 03. In any event, I have certainly have received CR handguns shipped USPS from 01 FFLs but if I ship one I have to use UPS. When I looked at the rules it seemed to me that this was correct, but it's been awhile.

    They may ship them if it's going to an approved party, such as another dealer/importer/manufacturer/etc. A "collector" is not one.
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    This seems to be more common than is let on here.

    Is it correct? Seems 5 opinions from 3 different people. I for one would like a definitive answer.

    It is not correct. A handgun cannot be shipped via UPS to an 03 FFL. I believe that an 03 FFL can be on the sending end - he/she can ship a firearm to a dealer, manufacturer, etc., but I know that an 03 cannot be on the receiving end. See Section 432.2(a). Of course, that's not the case with an antique.

    432.2 Handguns

    Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:
    a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
    b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in Exhibit 432.25 and in 432.21 through 432.24.
    c. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include adult signature service under DMM 503.9.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
    d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
    Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.
     

    jkeiler

    Active Member
    Mar 25, 2013
    536
    Bowie
    It is not correct. A handgun cannot be shipped via UPS to an 03 FFL. I believe that an 03 FFL can be on the sending end - he/she can ship a firearm to a dealer, manufacturer, etc., but I know that an 03 cannot be on the receiving end. See Section 432.2(a). Of course, that's not the case with an antique.

    432.2 Handguns

    Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:
    a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
    b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in Exhibit 432.25 and in 432.21 through 432.24.
    c. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include adult signature service under DMM 503.9.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
    d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
    Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.

    We are talking USPS here, not UPS right? The regulation quoted says that C&R handguns cannot be shipped USPS between 03 holders unless antiques. It doesn't say an 01 can't mail a handgun to an 03. Is there a reg that says that?
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    We are talking USPS here, not UPS right? The regulation quoted says that C&R handguns cannot be shipped USPS between 03 holders unless antiques. It doesn't say an 01 can't mail a handgun to an 03. Is there a reg that says that?

    Yes, USPS.

    I didn't quote all of the regulations. Notice that the regulation says, "Handguns . . . are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24". You get your answer by looking at Section 432.24:

    432.24 Certificate of Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

    A federal firearms licensee manufacturer, dealer, or importer . . . must file with the Postmaster a statement on PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer, dealer, or importer of firearms. The mailer must also state that . . . to the best of their knowledge the addressees are licensed manufacturers, dealers, or importers of firearms.
     

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