want to build an AK. can you use screws?

gsrcrxsi · Apr 14, 2012

so i was talking with a friend of mine about building an AK. he showed me his AK's that he had built and the basic process. didnt seem too hard. i have my own press, so with the jig and a flat i could knock that out easy.

it seems to me that a lot of the expensive tooling for building AK's is for the many number of rivets holding the receiver assembly together.

is it possible or even viable to just tap the rivet holes on the trunnions and use a screw instead? this would make assembly much quicker and easier. obviously i would use grade 8 (or class 10.9) hardware, and red thread locker on the screws. i o realize that you will probably spend more on screws instead of rivets, but with the added cost you gain the ease and speed of assembly and disassembly) i think it would still look pretty good with nice button head hex key (socket cap) screws.

has this been done before? concerns with strength/reliability?
just tossing the idea around. i realize some parts will HAVE to be welded and that there isnt any getting around that.

my main goal build an AK that LOOKS as good as it performs. want classic AK reliability, but dont want it to look like i beat it together with a hammer...

h2u · Apr 14, 2012

Yes. I have a screw build. It won't be as "safe" as rivets possibly-but it doesn't get shot much. Plus, there are pics somewhere of someone shooting an AK put together with toothpicks!

gsrcrxsi said:
so i was talking with a friend of mine about building an AK. he showed me his AK's that he had built and the basic process. didnt seem too hard. i have my own press, so with the jig and a flat i could knock that out easy.

it seems to me that a lot of the expensive tooling for building AK's is for the many number of rivets holding the receiver assembly together.

is it possible or even viable to just tap the rivet holes on the trunnions and use a screw instead? this would make assembly much quicker and easier. obviously i would use grade 8 (or class 10.9) hardware, and red thread locker on the screws. i o realize that you will probably spend more on screws instead of rivets, but with the added cost you gain the ease and speed of assembly and disassembly) i think it would still look pretty good with nice button head hex key (socket cap) screws.

has this been done before? concerns with strength/reliability?
just tossing the idea around. i realize some parts will HAVE to be welded and that there isnt any getting around that.

my main goal build an AK that LOOKS as good as it performs. want classic AK reliability, but dont want it to look like i beat it together with a hammer...

Oldcarjunkie · Apr 14, 2012

My buddies who have built a few said they used zip screws

G O B · Apr 14, 2012

I used rivets and beat them in with a hammer! it is the best way to go.

MikeTF · Apr 14, 2012

I have never built an AK. I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about it. I did find a website that cautions against using screws in place of rivets:

You may have come across some people claiming to have an easier "alternative" to correctly riveting an AK. One such notion is the "Screw Build". This is not an equally valid alternative but a fundamentally unsafe method used by ignorant fools who cannot grasp the differences in application for different types of fasteners. That a particular grade of button-head cap screw may be "harder" or "stronger" than a comparable rivet misses the point of application. During firing an AK will flex across all thee planes, yaws and is subjected to significant rotational forces and harmonics. Screws are a completely inappropriate fastener for this type of strain. Rivets, in contrast, are ideally suited.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notesak/ak74build/pageak74build.shtml#anchor1

Rivets, That was my answer in 1947, 1974, and today.

gsrcrxsi · Apr 14, 2012

my problem with blanket statements like that is they dont address HOW MUCH force the rivets are exposed to, and how much strength is required from the fastener. they are all fear mongering under the assumption that rivets are the limit and anything less will result in a hand grenade.

totally made up numbers for hypothetical purposes

say the rivet fails at a sheer force of 10,000 lbs
the screw fails at a sheer force of 8,000 lbs
the gun only produces a sheer force (on the rivet or screw), of 2,000 lbs.

see what i mean, you dropped the factor of safety from 5 to 4, that doesnt mean its unsafe by any means as in my example, both fasteners can MORE than handle the forces involved. sure fatigue and harmonics can come into play, and its a factor that could come into play too, but again, no facts. i realize that my numbers are made up, but i urge anyone who is against a screw build to provide facts and not speculation.

h2u · Apr 14, 2012

MikeTF said:
I have never built an AK. I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about it. I did find a website that cautions against using screws in place of rivets:

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notesak/ak74build/pageak74build.shtml#anchor1

Rivets, That was my answer in 1947, 1974, and today.

Mark Graham is one of the best in the business as a gunsmith. LOVE his work. In fact, I have two of his builds (FAL's). He's good-he's cocky-and he speaks from that perspective. Yes. Rivets are better, but screws will work and are not a bomb in waiting

I own a screw build as the rivet build get messed up a little and I already had to drill out the rivets-so I tapped the trunnions and went from there. I don't shoot it much, but it was fun to build via different method. Again, if an AK can be fired while being held together with toothpicks, it should hold for a little while longer with screws

gsrcrxsi · Apr 14, 2012

hmm, i took a look at some pics of the screw builds and im just not really digging the look. i thought it would look better.

i may just pony up on the rivet jig that does everything ($250?) and use that with my press.

rob-cubed · Apr 14, 2012

I have never done a screw build, but IMO they just don't look right. Guys swear screw and welded builds work OK, and I have never read of either having catastrophic failure. BUT... I would highly recommend rivets. Just buy the jig. If you are only building one or two guns, you can sell the jig used and make most of your money back.

One thing you can't do with screws is have them properly fill the tapered holes on the front and rear trunnions. Probably not a big deal for semi-auto fire but if you are going to take the time to build it, do it right.

Atlasarmory · Apr 14, 2012

gsrcrxsi said:
hmm, i took a look at some pics of the screw builds and im just not really digging the look. i thought it would look better.

i may just pony up on the rivet jig that does everything ($250?) and use that with my press.

Do some more research. The rivet tools are no more difficult to fabricate then the AK itself. I made my own bending jig with 2 pieces of 2x2x1/4 angle iron and some 1/2 13 all thread. A descent pair of dial calibers will help you set the gap on the jig and help center the flat in the jig. I then used two pieces of 1 1/4x 3/8 FB that are through bolted to the flat and are used to draw it through the die. I made one of my rivet tools from a large grade 8 bolt and a 5/16 set screw "again do some googleing" If you have the skill to properly drill and tap holes for machine screws and you have a press your already more then half way to coming up with a set of your own rivet tools.

DarthZed · Apr 14, 2012

Rivets are great, screws will work, but nothing beats JB Weld. It makes for a very sleek and modern looking rifle.

I'm joking obviously. But then I got to wondering and.....it WOULD work. Anyone who's used that stuff will attest to how strong it is. I know a guy who used it to seal the front crankshaft bearing on an old 1.6L miata.

h2u · Apr 15, 2012

I have a weld build that I shoot as well...guess I like to live dangerously

awptickes · Apr 15, 2012

There's absolutely no reason why you can't use screws. I would weld the rails though. If I ever get around to building another AK (which I will, in a few months) I'll be doing a screw build just to see. But since I already have most of the tooling to do rivets (save for the press) I'm biased to do more rivet builds.

Screw builds are faster, cheaper (if you have the taps already,) and just as strong. The rivets aren't necessarily load bearing, they take some impact, but not much. Take a look at how soft rivets are compared to a screw and you'll have your answer.

If you want to do a screw build, I've got a set of metric taps you're more than welcome to use, and my rail welder is now proven.

EDIT: I wouldn't even bother using Grade 8 bolts, Grade 3 is enough.

clandestine · Apr 15, 2012

Terrible way to build an AK. Anyone who works with firearms know that Screws rarely stay put, even with loctite or rocksett.

No country uses Screws for builds, its not more cost effective or labor efficient. Screws also have stress risers (The Threads) which means they have a higher likleyhood to shear off or fracture. Rivets dont have this issue.

Ive seen countless broken off screws on firearms in my time, never seen a broken rivet. Rivets can absorb force much better because they are not as hard, where a screw is treated to be harder in most cases, this increases the likleyhood of breakage.

You guys want to build an AK with screws its your own safety your gambling with, but please dont tell others its safer, stronger, or better than rivets when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Scott7891 · Apr 17, 2012

clandestine said:
Terrible way to build an AK. Anyone who works with firearms know that Screws rarely stay put, even with loctite or rocksett.

No country uses Screws for builds, its not more cost effective or labor efficient. Screws also have stress risers (The Threads) which means they have a higher likleyhood to shear off or fracture. Rivets dont have this issue.

Ive seen countless broken off screws on firearms in my time, never seen a broken rivet. Rivets can absorb force much better because they are not as hard, where a screw is treated to be harder in most cases, this increases the likleyhood of breakage.

You guys want to build an AK with screws its your own safety your gambling with, but please dont tell others its safer, stronger, or better than rivets when you have no idea what you are talking about.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=282527296

:lol:

Tell it to that guy who actually bid money on it at that price :lol2:

Nemesis · Apr 18, 2012

Scott7891 said:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=282527296

Tell it to that guy who actually bid money on it at that price

i feel so bad for him, i really do. non chromed barrel, and a screw build...the seller should be sent away for a long, long time...

Scott7891 · Apr 19, 2012

Nemesis said:
i feel so bad for him, i really do. non chromed barrel, and a screw build...the seller should be sent away for a long, long time...

Yea the seller is definitely an ass for putting up something for sale at that price but the buyer is equally at fault for not doing his homework and paying that much for a screw build :lol2:

Hopefully this experience will learn him a lesson....

Numidian · Apr 19, 2012

Screws are great if you don't have the equipment to press out the barrel and they will hold up just fine for 99.9% of uses.

Smear the sides of the trunnion with JB Weld and red or green loctite on the screws and call it good.

If the screw ever breaks or works loose, you can do rivets then, or you can weld it up.

Lots of ways to skin a cat :thumbsup:

armed ferret · Apr 26, 2012

I have a press and the jigs. Lots of people here do. It's *NOT* difficult. Actually, with how easily the screws often don't bite and end up just falling right out, it's less frustrating to rivet.

Just sayin'....maybe ask around and see if you can use someone's tooling.

want to build an AK. can you use screws?

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