SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

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    boothdoc

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 23, 2008
    5,133
    Frederick county
    MSI and the gang have been at this long enough that I believe them when they say trust me. I also say that if Spott and the Mods sy the can't tell us then it is for everyones best interest they don't spill the beans.

    MODS, MSI- thanks:thumbsup:
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    A lot of questions, and I've been away all day...same with Norton.

    MSI knew about this a while back, and while all the armchair quarterbacks were bitching that we weren't "doing enough" or we were being "too polite" we were grinding our teeth trying to remain mute while getting all of our ducks in a row. Norton did a lot of background research for this case and got a lot of the names, dates and info that will be needed to make this a success.

    And yes, we are helping to foot the bill. We've been holding off on purchasing a lot of things that people thought we should buy, and holding back on things that people thought we should do. We (MSI) will be cutting a major check to support this. This is our mission, and we've been laying groundwork in ways that weren't appropriate for public discussion.

    So to the impatient paeople that have been pissing and moaning about the lack of action, you can go **** yourselves. Thanks for making our jobs ten times harder while we put things together for this.

    There's others that will be influential in this as well, but I'll let them announce their involvement whenever they feel the time is right.

    But this is no slam dunk, and don't think for a second that win or lose, our enemies in the legislature won't try to pay us back tenfold.


    As to the money thing, I don'tt hink it matters where you send money to now....just send it. This case is priority one for MSI as it's the flagship mission. Fighting other bad legislation, as important as it is to do so is always second on the mission statement and we're a few months away from MD's legislative session.
    We may have our disagreement in tactics at times, but I have for the last two years supported MSI with finances (and I really should support with more time in the future), so that said, I really do appreciate all of the hard work.

    I'm sorry that I let emotional and "get 'em" arguments float into my replies sometimes and give me the e-warrior complex, but I tire of the battered constituent syndrome that we all suffer from.

    I'll keep fighting the public officals in the arena of right and wrong, and you guys promise to keep up the good work and use my $ effectively.
     

    Gray Peterson

    Active Member
    Aug 18, 2009
    422
    Lynnwood, WA
    All I'm saying is that there has to be a better way to handle the questions about the work you are doing behind the scenes.

    Sometimes there just isn't. You noticed that Gura's involvement in the Maryland litigation wasn't disclosed until the suit is filed. You don't post battle plans for everyone (including your enemies), you let the court filings speak for themselves and let people speculate. If the folks at the MSP knew that they would be facing Alan Gura rather than a local attorney, they would have been more prepared for the Gura onslaught.

    The folks that continually pepper MSI with questions and then getting upset when they can't get an answer, and then throw sand in the gears because they think their donation entitles them to battle plans. You have to assume that members of the MSP and other anti-gun groups join up pro-gun groups and do intel work. It's because of this that you have to play things close to the chest.
     

    haoleboy

    1/2 Banned
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 17, 2005
    4,085
    Dentsville
    The folks that continually pepper MSI with questions and then getting upset when they can't get an answer, and then throw sand in the gears because they think their donation entitles them to battle plans. You have to assume that members of the MSP and other anti-gun groups join up pro-gun groups and do intel work. It's because of this that you have to play things close to the chest.
    That is a good way to stop me and other good people from donating.
     

    organized_mayhem

    Legend in my own mind
    Again, sorry to be a stick in the mud but lets say that MD loses today and they must issue to law abiding citizens, they will take 2 years to issuse a permit and then someone will file a lawsuit and it will be again years before that is settled.

    While I appreciate the sentiment and have donated tp the SAF, I will not be holding my breath that we will soon be carrying in MD.

    Thanks for fighting but I know what we are up against and it is not good.

    NOBODY

    Its just like the ones fighting to drill in ANWAR, etc. The naysayers say why bother because it will be 10 years before we get oil in the market from wells drilled there. The reality is, if all we do is talk about it it will always be 10 years. We have tried for years to get this through the legislature with no results. It has to start somewhere and will not change unless forced through the courts. So yes it could be years. but we now are one step closer than we were before yesterday.
     

    Trapper

    I'm a member too.
    Feb 19, 2009
    1,369
    Western AA county
    ... and now back to the topic of the SAF suing the F out of the MSP!!!! ahh.

    I'm even happier that I joined after McDonald, and whoever at SAF read my long-winded "suggestion" for a case against Maryland has probably had a good laugh.

    I'll be home next Friday and that "Lifer Pack" that UPS dropped off is waiting for me. I might actually have to put the sticker on my truck (just on the glass mind you).

    WOOT US!!! See you at the Meeting!
     

    rambling_one

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 19, 2007
    6,725
    Bowie, MD
    That is a good way to stop me and other good people from donating.

    There's always the option of becoming an Executive Member (most of us didn't know the details however) or placing your name on the officer's slate and see if you can garner enough votes.

    With something as sensitive as THE FIRST MARYLAND SUIT THAT MAY IMPACT US IN A POSITIVE MANNER it appears that you may be slightly overreacting to the close-hold tactics. Take a deep breath and try to see things from the perspective of those who made this work.
     
    Last edited:

    haoleboy

    1/2 Banned
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 17, 2005
    4,085
    Dentsville
    you guys are missing the point, except for Spot I'm sure.

    If you are a representative of a non-profit .org that I donate my hard earned money to....If I ask questions about the good fight, please don't respond to me with "Go F%$# Yourself"

    Is everyone clear on this now? I understand the reasoning for keeping some stuff under wraps. I believe that the GFU response was very unprofessional for a representative of MSI.
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    you guys are missing the point, except for Spot I'm sure.

    If you are a representative of a non-profit .org that I donate my hard earned money to....If I ask questions about the good fight, please don't respond to me with "Go F%$# Yourself"

    Is everyone clear on this now? I understand the reasoning for keeping some stuff under wraps. I believe that the GFU response was very unprofessional for a representative of MSI.

    Perhaps the answer is a "wink and a nod". Point being, of all of those emoticons, surely one can be developed, or understood to mean, "I hear what you are saying, we are doing something about it, please be patient, but we can't tell you about it just now".:ninja: ?
     

    Gray Peterson

    Active Member
    Aug 18, 2009
    422
    Lynnwood, WA
    That is a good way to stop me and other good people from donating.

    Then don't donate. This isn't the military so you are not required by law to give your time to Uncle Sam, but we are in a legality war which requires funding. Whether it be in lives or in money, Freedom isn't Free. Remember, if you're in Maryland and they win "self defense" as good and substantial reason, you'll be able to protect yourselves and your families lawfully outside of the home.

    I'll say it again: You don't post the full roadmap for everyone to see, including your enemies.
     

    Gray Peterson

    Active Member
    Aug 18, 2009
    422
    Lynnwood, WA
    Again, sorry to be a stick in the mud but lets say that MD loses today and they must issue to law abiding citizens, they will take 2 years to issuse a permit and then someone will file a lawsuit and it will be again years before that is settled.

    You're wrong. As I explained before, this is a suit against MSP's policy, not a suit against the statute itself. We now have motions to compel, motions for contempt, mandamus writs, and so on now available to us for the first time.

    Reposting:

    Let me clue you in on something at least in regards the lawsuits against DC and Chicago versus a lawsuit filed against the MSP for the way they enforce "good and substantial reason".

    In the case against the District of Columbia and the later case against Chicago, those were both against municipal codes and statutes. The problem with asking for strike downs of municipal codes and statutes is that the cities can just write new laws, like what happened in Chicago and DC.

    In the Sykes and Peruta cases, those were lawsuits to make "good cause" to be "self defense" and "good moral character" to be "not prohibited by law", and that may really means shall in a legal context. They are essentially policy directives by the federal courts to the issuing authority to stop enforcing a mealy mouth statute that gives them discretion to deny and basically forces them to issue freely in order to comply with the U.S. constitution.

    The Maryland State Police, when given a directive by a federal judge that "good and substantial reason" means "self defense", The MSP will not be able to put in Byzantine requirements like DC and Chicago did. Remember, it's a constitutional ruling against the way a POLICY is enforced, not the actual statute or statutory prohibition. The federal courts have had long experience in enforcing their decisions and decrees. If the Superintendent of the State Police refuses to comply with the court ruling, he will be held in contempt and then he will be picked up by the US Marshal's Court Security Services Division and taken to the local federal holding facility until he complies with the law, by signing the order inside of the jail cell. If they try to pass byzantine requirements, the federal judge will hold the superintendent in contempt, and a refusal to comply will mean a US Marshals escort to a federal holding facility.

    Contrast this with the Palmer case (which is seeking to strike down the District of Columbia's total carry ban), and my case (which seeks to strike down the state residency requirement before acquiring a CHL in the city and county of Denver, CO). Though DC could rewrite the statute if Palmer wins, If I win my case against Denver, Denver cannot rewrite the statute themselves since it is a function of state law and the Legislature cannot just simply rewrite the law to revoke my license or cause problems, as there is no political will in Colorado to screw with CCW holders in general, and would likely be injuncted against by the same federal judge in the same case (especially if they try to screw with the validity of the license I paid for, and got a court order to get). Again, these are statutory strike downs. A suit against MSP does not require a statutory strike down.

    The only reason you're not familiar with these concepts is that for the first time, the 2nd amendment has NOW been properly recognized as a fundamental right. Federal injunctions, motions to compel, writs of mandamus, special masters and contempt citations have never been done in 2A cases before because up until McDonald, the very concept of that is foreign and alien to those of us who fought so hard for the right to keep and bear arms. Years of fighting this battles can make one cynical.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    Deadlines will be set for initial briefs, then response to those briefs. Then MD will file a request for an extension, which SAF will oppose with a request for a Motion for Summary Judgment. The state's request will be granted, the SAF request denied.

    Then the state will file another brief and SAF will respond. At which point the court will call a hearing, where both sides will acknowledge no "finding" is required. SAF will again ask for an MSJ and MD will again request a delay. The MD motion will be denied but the court will allow MD time to formulate more arguments before actually ruling. Barring something interesting from MD, the court will issue their judgment.

    This is pretty much how every single other case has gone.

    If MD loses, they will request a stay on the MSJ while they appeal based on the inherent danger of letting people roam the streets with guns. The court may agree if MD paints a case that says they might win on appeal. But given this is a civil rights case, chances are the answer will be "tough".

    Timeline front to back: 9 months although we could see things move much faster. I might owe Krucam dinner this year, yet.

    That is one bet I'd be happy to lose.

    The big likelihood for slowing the process down will be one of the other cases making it up the chain of the 4th or to the Supreme Court before the judgment is made. Then this court will go into hiatus waiting on the Supreme/Circuit Court to decide, just like so many cases that waited on McDonald. So if the NC case advances, or if Sykes in CA moves beyond the 9th...everything will probably stop. Not sure the NY case can advance fast enough to get in the way.
    Don't forget the 4~6 month lead time on permit processing.

    Herm. Makes me wonder if I shouldn't start the process NOW or just when the case hits the courts. Actually, when this case goes to hearing (since applying now has no bearing on test cases), it would be a good place to be ahead of the people waiting to the day after MSJ.
     

    Gray Peterson

    Active Member
    Aug 18, 2009
    422
    Lynnwood, WA
    you guys are missing the point, except for Spot I'm sure.

    If you are a representative of a non-profit .org that I donate my hard earned money to....If I ask questions about the good fight, please don't respond to me with "Go F%$# Yourself"

    Is everyone clear on this now? I understand the reasoning for keeping some stuff under wraps. I believe that the GFU response was very unprofessional for a representative of MSI.

    I do not believe they were talking to you in the first place. They were talking to the people who got an answer of "We can't say yet" and then throw their donation in their face thinking they are entitled to the full 'roadmap''". Perhaps spot can further explain to what level did people take it to cause him to use such language.

    -Gray
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,372
    White Marsh
    Spot said the following:

    So to the impatient paeople that have been pissing and moaning about the lack of action, you can go **** yourselves. Thanks for making our jobs ten times harder while we put things together for this.

    He didn't say that people who ask too many questions could **** off. haoleboy, I don't think that was directed at you. I think, without speaking for Spot, that he was expressing some frustration on behalf of the roughly two dozen people in this state who are consistently fighting the battle and spreading the word on behalf of the roughly 1,000,000 gun owners in our state.

    Believe me, I understand that not everyone has time and/or money to lend to our mutual cause, but it's pretty disheartening to consistently make that sacrifice and then hear from the armchair QBs and lawyers who would have done it differently, but then don't throw their hat in the ring to facilitate a change.

    MSI is led, run and supported by normal (:innocent0) everyday folks who have jobs, families, hobbies and other things to do besides fight the fight. Every single board member, officer and executive member welcome and encourage criticism of what we do, but when it's never backed up by someone who feels so strongly about their alternate vision as to become an EM or run for one of the board/officer positions, it wears on a man, fast.

    Please don't take this as criticism of you or how his comments impacted you, I'm just offering my two cents on the situation. We share a common goal here. If you feel that you're best served by no longer donating to MSI, that's absolutely your choice to make. In either case, I hope you can make it to the meeting next Sunday.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    Again, sorry to be a stick in the mud but lets say that MD loses today and they must issue to law abiding citizens, they will take 2 years to issuse a permit and then someone will file a lawsuit and it will be again years before that is settled.

    While I appreciate the sentiment and have donated tp the SAF, I will not be holding my breath that we will soon be carrying in MD.

    Thanks for fighting but I know what we are up against and it is not good.

    NOBODY
    Doubtful. Once ruled upon, as someone else said, they will have to comply. Making a 2 year waiting period, and getting hauled right back in front of the court a motion for summary judgment will be issued almost immediately. Considering there is a permitting process in place, and even if that process takes 3 or 4 months, you could not arbitrarily increase it to your "2" year example and not draw the suspicion of the court for circumventing their ruling.
     

    ozwyn

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 21, 2008
    1,212
    Richardson, Texas
    Anyone else think we should just do a "mass SAF and MSI group buy donation" thread and link it to this one?

    Thanks again MSI/SAF on this. Civil rights count, and the 2nd is the foundation for ultimate preservation of those rights.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    I do not believe they were talking to you in the first place. They were talking to the people who got an answer of "We can't say yet" and then throw their donation in their face thinking they are entitled to the full 'roadmap''". Perhaps spot can further explain to what level did people take it to cause him to use such language.

    -Gray
    Nah, Spot was talking about people (like myself) that have said we should stick it to the hypocrites in the legislature who have a permit and then vote against us.

    I see the point that the admins and MSI are making on keeping "the list" private to be able to keep those who need their permits "private." We were disagreeing on nuclear war tactics.

    Spot, Norton, et al. Like I've said before, I understand your positioning on that sole issue, and I know you do good work. That's why I've sent money when I can afford it the last two years for my annual dues (plus some). I will continue to do that because I need to (since NRA doesn't do enough). Work has been crumby this week, so I'll send you another couple bucks and join as an annual member to SAF before I head home. I think another $25 or so in the game will help (it's what I have to give right now and yes, every bit of grassroots $$$ helps).
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,372
    White Marsh
    By the way, if anyone who is donating to MSI wants a little more bang for their buck, I still have the white MSI tshirts for sale. Sizes XL and 2X still available. $10 if you pick it up somewhere around Baltimore/White Marsh/at the MSI meeting next Sunday, or $15 if you want it shipped to your door.
     
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