Never thought this appendix topic would get a rise out of so many people.
Larry Vickers bans appendix carry
- Thread starter clandestine
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast
Member Benefits:
No ad networks! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
Never thought this appendix topic would get a rise out of so many people.
Attachments
Tru Dat! OP started with a boner and the thread has grown into a full blown pecker checker contest
Eventis sultorum magister
Yep.. That be one.. Seen it on other class I taken.Are you ^^^ making reference to a June of 2013 class out Frederick, MD??? If so, I determined that he was a problem child while in the classroom looooooong before range time; range time only confirmed my suspicions in the classroom. Not only did he "drop", but he also lost his handgun in the grass (that I found) but also on the pavement during drawing/holstering drills before we walked up to the range for live fire. This person had NO business being in our class and should've been in an NRA Basic Handgun class instead. Don't get me started about the rest of the shit about him.
I hadda' talk with Ben about this at a later date and things have been changed (one now has to "pre-qualify" to be able to take that class) to weed out the rookies/novices/wannabees before class time.
gasman
Active Member
Sounds like Vickers is dumbing down his training to teach to the lowest common denominator instead of raising the level of skill of his students. I guess we at Suarez International don't know anything about appendix carry, or how it works when training under pressure in FoF. Col Cooper must not have known what he was talking about either. For those of you who want to know what I'm talking about, try http://blog.suarezinternational.com...le-concealable-and-quickest.html#.VY6lCxj3arU
From Jeff Cooper on Handguns - copyright 1979
(ISBN 0-8227-2121-X) Page 86.
"Raked forward in front of the right hip is the appendix position. This is a good one for a detective whose need for concealment is not overriding. The pistol can be seen when if the coat falls open, and is somewhat uncomfortable when the wearer is seated, but it is faster than the kidney position and it permits a locked wrist.
The only man I know who is both a Class A combat shot and a highly skilled holster designer is also a full-time narcotics agent. (I would like to call him by name but his line of work prevents me).
He has settled on a .45 Commander, carried in the appendix position in a soft leather holster worn inside the trousers and beneath a hung out shirt tail. To blend with his unsavory professional environment, he has cultivated a sort of peacenik slouch with arms dangling forward and hands touching.
In this pose, his right forearm protects his sidearm from surreptitious search, and his left hand is ready to flip the shirt tail away if his right hand must draw. And heaven help the pusher who chooses to challenge this particular narc!"
The man Cooper was writing about was none other than the inventor of the entire IWB Summer Special concept, Bruce Nelson.
It's Vicker's house, and he can make whatever rules he wants for his classes. As for us, we will continue to raise the skill level of our students, and teach them how to be as deadly to the adversary as possible.
From Jeff Cooper on Handguns - copyright 1979
(ISBN 0-8227-2121-X) Page 86.
"Raked forward in front of the right hip is the appendix position. This is a good one for a detective whose need for concealment is not overriding. The pistol can be seen when if the coat falls open, and is somewhat uncomfortable when the wearer is seated, but it is faster than the kidney position and it permits a locked wrist.
The only man I know who is both a Class A combat shot and a highly skilled holster designer is also a full-time narcotics agent. (I would like to call him by name but his line of work prevents me).
He has settled on a .45 Commander, carried in the appendix position in a soft leather holster worn inside the trousers and beneath a hung out shirt tail. To blend with his unsavory professional environment, he has cultivated a sort of peacenik slouch with arms dangling forward and hands touching.
In this pose, his right forearm protects his sidearm from surreptitious search, and his left hand is ready to flip the shirt tail away if his right hand must draw. And heaven help the pusher who chooses to challenge this particular narc!"
The man Cooper was writing about was none other than the inventor of the entire IWB Summer Special concept, Bruce Nelson.
It's Vicker's house, and he can make whatever rules he wants for his classes. As for us, we will continue to raise the skill level of our students, and teach them how to be as deadly to the adversary as possible.
hogarth
Ultimate Member
- Jun 13, 2009
- 2,504
I was trying to find a clip of that episode but couldn't!!!!!
That's the Maestro. What about "Jimmy"? He took the 3rd person to new heights!
Tactics
Ultimate Member
Wasn't there a guy on here who did the third person thing?
El Patrone Grande or something?
El Patrone Grande or something?
clandestine
AR-15 Savant
Yup, that was Jaypark reborn.
Appendix carry with a good owb holster serves it's purpose when aligned properly with the belt loops. This allows the wearer to slide it around forward when standing up(allowing better concealment for even the largest pistols) and for comfort when slid back while sitting.
- Aug 17, 2011
- 26,177
clandestine
AR-15 Savant
- Aug 17, 2011
- 26,177
I knew teratos had to be involved somehow...
clandestine
AR-15 Savant
DanGuy48
Ultimate Member
It seems those reasons are why someone would shoot themselves any way, not just that way. I was trying to understand why that specific carry position is more risky than another. I can understand it if a person is trying to holster a weapon beneath a large gut; for the average person, I just don't see what's creating the increased risk for that specific carry position. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to understand because I deal with a line of holsters in a small business I have.
hogarth
Ultimate Member
- Jun 13, 2009
- 2,504
Again, it's not that AIWB makes an ND more likely, it's just the consequences if an ND DOES happen.
Having said that, I actually think an ND is slightly LESS likely AIWB, and that's because it's easier to see down into the holster as you holster. A holster worn at 3:00 or especially at 4-4:30 is much more difficult see into. Also, considering that jackets with drawstrings tend to have the exposed drawstrings & those little toggle things on the sides, they are more likely to get into a holster worn on the side (if you're wearing such a jacket). Just some food for thought. I will continue to carry AIWB. If I take a class with LAV or someone else who prohibits their use, then I will wear strongside for the class.
Well, get an appendix carry holster and unloaded gun and try it out. Take is slow. You will notice that you essentially must flag yourself to get the pistol back in the holster. And, in most cases, the pistol is always pointing at parts of your anatomy. This sort of violates "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy."
Again, I will point out there is a specific reason where appendix carry must be used - deep cover where you MUST hide the fact you are armed. However, for the civilian CCW (and most duty uses) I cannot recommend it and I don't personally know any professional who does. Remember, just because you are using bad technique and nothing bad has happened yet, you are still set up for failure at sometime in the future. There are plenty of people who love the Serpa and have never had a problem with it. Yet, there have still been a disturbing number of Serpa fails.
As to the close combat piece, consider that you average civilian CCW would have to employ his piece because he is about to get robbed or attacked. The BG will pretty much be in your face at that point. Keep in mind The Element is pretty savvy. If they think you are reaching for a weapon they will make a play for it. That is what happened in Ferguson. Make sure you have a plan to defend your CCW, yourself, and get your pistol into the fight. Some of the videos I posted above should give you an idea of how this might go down.
DanGuy48
Ultimate Member
OK, thanks for the replies. So the issue is only partially with difficulty in re-holstering in that position (large gut excepted) but also with the much greater likelihood of serious injury that could result, as compared to taking a shot in the thigh muscle or buttocks. Got it.
And yeah, I had read about the Serpa incidents with the release mechanism and the fact that a person might have tension on the trigger finger while withdrawing the weapon. I don't get nearly as much practice as many here training with a holster, so I avoid a Serpa with that feature for myself and use something different. (I have a level 2, 5.11/Bladetech for my Glock 17...not concealed). I just wasn't following the drift of the discussion about carry location, thinking it was solely about difficulty with manipulation during re-holstering. Just call me dense.
And yeah, I had read about the Serpa incidents with the release mechanism and the fact that a person might have tension on the trigger finger while withdrawing the weapon. I don't get nearly as much practice as many here training with a holster, so I avoid a Serpa with that feature for myself and use something different. (I have a level 2, 5.11/Bladetech for my Glock 17...not concealed). I just wasn't following the drift of the discussion about carry location, thinking it was solely about difficulty with manipulation during re-holstering. Just call me dense.
Users who are viewing this thread
Latest posts
-
-
Montgomery County Gun Buyback: Interfaith GVP Network Aims to Hit $30,000 Goal by April 20 (7 Viewers)- Latest: TruthAloft
-
